MR LEWIN: Our next witness is Phumzile Priscilla Ntimbane. Good morning. If you could please explain to us who is with you.

MS NTIMBANE: The people in my company, the one on my right-hand side is my daughter and the other one on my left is my sister's daughter.

MR LEWIN: We would like to welcome them and thank you very much for coming to support her. Before you tell us your story could you please stand and take the oath.

PHUMZILE PRISCILLA NTIMBANE: (sworn states)

MR LEWIN: I will ask Commissioner Mkhize please to lead your evidence.

MS MKHIZE: We welcome you Phumzile and the people who are in your company. I would like you to explain your story especially regarding the death of your brother Vusi.

MS NTIMBANE: It was in 1976, Vus was involved as an accessory member, he was schooling at Tembisa High school. From there we didn't get threats from the white people. I'll say even at night they will come to our place. After that Vus realised that he had to skip the country. He skipped the country without even saying bye to us. We didn't know where he was.

After some time my father passed away. After he skipped the country, the Boers came to arrest us and my mother was not feeling well at the time.

In 1981 Vus came back to the country, he was arrested TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

2 NTIMBANE

when he came back and detained. I was the one who used to visit him, and I asked why, and they told me that he was arrested for skipping the country. He was represented by Priscilla Jana and he was released later.

In 1985 they declared a state of emergency. At 12 o'clock at night, white men came, they found all of us at home and they said to Vus, we are coming to fetch you. He asked them has he done and they said to him, they've declared a state of emergency and came to arrest him. They took him away and for a month we didn't know where he was, how he was dressed, what he was eating. We went out to look for him all over and we couldn't find him. After a month we got a letter, they told us that we have to go to Special Branch at Springs. They will give us another letter which we can use to go to Modderbee to see Vusi.

We woke up in the morning, we went there, we got the letter and we found him. When we looked at him, his face was swollen, we couldn't even look at him twice. And he told us that, " As they have detained me here, they are afraid that you might see me, the way that they have beaten me up". We used to go and visit him in detention, we tried to get him out of prison or get him charged. After three months he was charged for public violence.

He stayed in detention on trial for two years and six months. The case was held and he was represented by Priscilla Jana and he was found, not guilty, and he was released.

After his release, about after three days, white police came again, they said, "Vus, we're coming to pick you up". They said they were going to question him. They said they will bring him back after three hours. We waited for three

TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

3 NTIMBANE

hours and I had to come to Tembisa, Rabasotho Police Station and I asked where Vus was. They said they didn't know where he was, and I asked them, he was taken by police. They said they didn't even know the police who took him.

Lucky enough I used to take the registration numbers of all the cars that used to arrive and I asked them their names. I gave them these registration numbers and they discovered that the police who took him were police from Benoni. Then I called Priscilla Jana. The lawyer found him and he was released. When he came back all his body looked like it was burned, he said he was given electric shocks, it went on like that.

In 1993 the violence started in our area. We were

staying next to Visumuzi Hostel. There was some fighting and Vus and his colleagues, as they were the leaders, formed the SD Youth. They were the people who were patrolling in the township. People couldn't sleep, people were dying and the boers were always coming now and then asking for firearms. They asked my mother whether they were keeping guns in their house or not and she told them she didn't know anything about arms.

On the appointed day, the day on which Vus died, he was not at home, he was with another family with one of the men he was working with. It was about past 7 o'clock in the evening. Young boys came to our place and they asked where Vus was and they told us that they were coming to tell us that one child by the name Sunele has been shot. This child was working with Vus and his friends he was staying in our street. I told them that Vus wasn't at home and they asked me to direct them where he was. They went to the place and they found him. He accompanied them and went to see where

TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

4 NTIMBANE

Sunele was shot.

When he arrived he told them that they must call the police. They called the police and Vus stayed there and waited for the police. They called for police and he took about two hours. They didn't arrive. When they arrived, Vus and his friends helped the police, they took the young boy and put him in the police van. As they were trying to pour some soil over the blood which was spilled on the ground, we could hear the sound of Caspers as they were running around. After a few minutes after the police had left, we heard some gunshots. I suspected that they might have killed someone. The shooting continued. It was so quiet and the Caspers which surrounded the place, the

hippos were still there surrounding the place. We were afraid to go out and Vus was not in the house at that time, because the Caspers were just standing outside.

We were all confused, we went to the phone to call, it was disconnected and we didn't know how we could be helped. And we went to sleep. And Vus was not at home that night. At about five o'clock in the morning a little child knocked at our door. This little child found me in the kitchen. The child told me that it was sent to come and call me. It said Vus had fallen on the opposite street. I took my shoes and ran towards the direction. When I arrived there I couldn't believe what I saw with my eyes. I found Vus lying in a pool of blood. When I looked cartridges were all over the street.

I asked what had happened. All over his body were gunshot wounds. The cartridges were from an AK 47. I tried to ask someone to call the police, who took time to arrive and asked what happened when they did so. I told them that Vus had been shot and they said, Why did you call us, why

TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

5 NTIMBANE

didn't you call Mr Mandela? I told them that I thought they were the people who were supposed to help us and I can't call Mr Mandela because I don't know his numbers. They turned him over and all his body was shot and his ribs were broken and I put my hand into his wounds.

They took him away, I was standing outside, they said to me, "Get in", and then I got in, they took him to the police station. He was a joke, all the boers were laughing at him and asking, why didn't he protect himself and where the other comrades were, why didn't they protect him? All the people were there who were shot and Vus was put on the ground and he was not covered. The Boers and the Police were laughing about him. They were saying people should come and see him because he's dead now.

At the present moment I'm just alone, it's myself, I have neither brothers nor sisters, my mother is 76 at the moment. I asked them in hospital, to help me to take Vus to a mortuary and these policemen heard my plea and they took him and put him onto the ground. They told me I must carry him. He was a giant, and I asked them how can I do this because he's such a big man? They said, "Then who is going to pick him up if you can't? I tried to pick him up and put him put him in the car and some of the police came to help me and we put him into the van.

They took him to the mortuary. Later the police came and they told us that they are the investigators on the case. The person who killed Vus is Eli Khumalo who stayed in the same street with us. When I came from the mortuary crying, this young man was standing on the corner of the street and he asked me why I was crying. He said Vus was killed on his duty. He knew that he was going to be killed

TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

6 NTIMBANE

like this.

I didn't answer this man. Later this investigating officer came and we gave him a statement and they said they would call us. They called me to Rabasotho Police Station. I went there and from there they took me to Olifant, where they showed me Vus' photographs and they were telling me that they are investigating and they are still looking for witnesses. It was surprising because all the people in the township know exactly who the perpetrators were. Even today, the person who killed my brother is a friend to the police. He came to my mother to tell her that it was not his intention to kill Vus and he will ask for forgiveness. And my mother told him that she doesn't know how to forgive. In the first place she didn't know how Vus was killed and what wrong he did. And he said to me, "I won't be arrested, the people who are investigating the case are my friends". And I also realised that this was true because every time when they came I thought they were coming to me to tell me about the investigations. They just came to see this friend of theirs and would sit and enjoy themselves drinking beer and cold drinks and later he would take them out. He was always with them.

And I used to come to the police station to ask to talk to the station commander. They said I don't have a right to talk to him and I tried to ask what the progress was on the case. They didn't tell me anything but this man who always boasted that he'll never be arrested, is not working. After killing Vus he was driving a Mercedes Benz. At the present moment he's driving a BMW and is a big friend of the police. There's nothing we can do. As the Truth Commission started in Tembisa I was phoned and told that if you go to the Truth TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

7 NTIMBANE

Commission your life is in danger. Even now, I'm here knowing that I can die at any time. Maybe if I get out of this place I might be killed because he knows that he is a friend of the police.

They just told me that I must go and tell Mandela.

MS MKHIZE: We like to thank you very much for your painful story. I will try to ask you a few questions. In the beginning you told us that you suffered a lot from 1976 because of Vus' involvement in the struggle. We also heard that even today you fear for your life by being here. I believe you know that we have witness protection programmes?

MS NTIMBANE: Yes I know that.

MS MKHIZE: If you are sure that you need some protection, you have to make it clear before the Commission before you leave. I'll ask a few questions with regard to the day your brother was killed. In short, can you explain or maybe I should start here, you said Vus got out and he came back. At the time when he got out, was he trained in the handling of arms or what training did he get outside and how did he come back to the country?

MS NTIMBANE: Vus got some help. He's the only man at home, my mother got Priscilla Jani to get Vus back to the country. That's how he was brought back. When he left the country he was an SRC member. He left the country because he was harassed by the Boers. He was doing Standard nine when he skipped the country.

MS MKHIZE: Thanks. I was asking whether he was trained in the handling of firearms.

MS NTIMBANE: I don't know about that.

MS MKHIZE: You said they formed an SDU unit, you mean the Self Defence Units?

TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

8 NTIMBANE

MS NTIMBANE: That's correct.

MS MKHIZE: Did they have some guide lines as to their duties?

MS NTIMBANE: I would say that Vus himself, he was a patroller. If someone's shot he will organise and talk to the Red Cross and he will report all the incidents that were happening.

MS MKHIZE: Is there any person who was an SDU member

who was not handling arms?

MS NTIMBANE: I'm not sure whether they were having guns or firearms.

MS MKHIZE: When Vus was killed, who was this Eli Khumalo, was he a member of the SDU or was he a member of any other organisation? As you said he had a lawyer Priscilla Jana, did he take the case.

MS NTIMBANE: We tried, we made an appointment with him, we couldn't find him. We talked with his receptionist and they told us that they would call us and up to today there's no case.

MS MKHIZE: Was there any inquest?

MS NTIMBANE: Yes there was a case in Tembisa Police Station. We reported the matter.

MS MKHIZE: Did you hear anything from them?

MS NTIMBANE: No we didn't hear anything and this Eli has not been arrested and he's boasting about this.

MS MKHIZE: Who was this person, who was guarding?

MS NTIMBANE: It was a student.

MS MKHIZE: According to your opinion, do you think Vus' shooting was connected to what he was doing in the community.

MS NTIMBANE: I'm not sure but I will say that police told

TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

9 NTIMBANE

him that they would not kill him with their own hands but some people in the community are going to kill him. Eli was a family friend. We stayed with him, we were sharing everything with him. I think the police used him because he knew Vus very well and he knew us very well too. They did not look for someone from far away, they just used the person next to us.

MS MKHIZE: In the beginning you said you know him.

MS NTIMBANE: I said he wasn't involved in the struggle but we were staying in the same place and we were living together as friends.

MS MKHIZE: The other one Mtalana, how was he killed?

MS NTIMBANE: He was shot by Eli's younger brother by the name of Lucky.

MS MKHIZE: Is it possible that the one who shot Vusi was angry because they were guarding that young man?

MS NTIMBANE: I think so because Vus also heard them call the police. Maybe they thought they might stand as witnesses against them.

MS MKHIZE: We'd like to thank you. This is a painful story. I will take you back to the chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Hlengiwe. Joyce?

MS SEROKE: Phumzile, here in your statement you say Eli's brother Lucky Khumalo is the one who shot Zanele Mtalana?

MS NTIMBANE: Yes Eli killed my brother and Lucky was the one who shot Mtalani.

MS SEROKE: Where is Lucky now?

MS NTIMBANE: He is still in the township, he was never arrested as well.

MS SEROKE: You say again you heard white policemen saying in Afrikaans to Eli and Eli said that he was going to kill

TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

10 NTIMBANE

Vusi.

MS NTIMBANE: Yes they were standing at our street and some had gone to take Mtalane, and these white men were standing next to a house and Eli said,"I will shoot them", and the other white policeman said, "Kill him and then we we will go our way as if we saw nothing".

MS SEROKE: Did you hear them?

MS NTIMBANE: Yes we did, me and my daughter were standing next to the window.

MS SEROKE: You mention the manner in which Vusi was shot, do you have a copy of the doctor's report regarding the post mortem explaining about all these wounds?

MS NTIMBANE: There is a copy. It's here at the policeman. The mortuary did give us and his photographs as well. They showed all the wounds in his body because I insisted that they should take a photograph of him.

MS SEROKE: Can we get a copy if we request it from the policeman?

MS NTIMBANE: Yes you can. I do know the policeman even though I don't know his surname. I know the policeman who has this copy, he showed me everything and I saw everything.

MS SEROKE: Are there people that you know definitely that they saw Eli shooting Vusi.

MS NTIMBANE: Yes the whole township saw him. Even he himself doesn't hide this. He revealed this to us and said that he's the one who shot Vusi.

MS SEROKE: You have given these peoples' names, can we get their addresses as well?

MS NTIMBANE: And those people who were with Vusi when he was shot. Although two are late already and the one is not around, but there is one who is still around here, and he

TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

11 NTIMBANE

picked up the magazine of the firearm and he tried to run but Eli took it and he finished Vusi off again.

MS SEROKE: Lastly you said these telephone threats that should you come to this Commission, is it from a male or a female?

MS NTIMBANE: It is a male voice but I couldn't hear his voice clearly, I couldn't identify the voice but it is a male voice.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Joyce Ntimbane. There are two very important points that I want to make here. The story that you have told us, your personal story is one that is very terrible. It fits the pattern that we have heard from a lot of other witnesses, it is something which we will investigate very carefully. You have given us a large amount of information, you have mentioned specific names. We have our own investigative unit, as the Commission and we will follow this up to the fullest extent within our powers. We would like to commend you for coming forward with this story. We would like to thank you for coming. But in doing so I would like to mention the second point which is not related specifically to you but it is what you have told us. You have told us that you have been threatened. This is in fact not the first time that we have evidence of people making threats and I would like to say on behalf of the Commission that we do not take these threats lightly at all. I would like also, on behalf of the Commission, to issue a warning to those people who think that they can intimidate either the witnesses, or the Commission itself. I need to remind people that this Commission the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was set up and established by a unanimous decision of Government, of Parliament. This is

TEMBISA HEARING TRC/GAUTENG

12 NTIMBANE

not just a Government Commission, this is a Commission of the People. We have been given a task and that task is to find out exactly what happened in the past in our country to bring that into the public arena, and to make it absolutely clear that these sorts of actions will not happen again. We will not be intimidated, we will not stand or brook any threats, either to ourselves or to the witnesses, and I want to tell people that through our own investigative unit and through our links with everybody in this country, in terms of the state organisations, whether they are the police or the other organs of state, we are closely in touch with them, they know what we are doing. We have that sanction to function independently, autonomously and to the fullest extent of our responsibilities. We will not be threatened nor will we allow anyone to be threatened, and if there is any action taken against people who have come to this Commission and given evidence openly and transparently, they will find themselves in a great deal of trouble, both from the Commission and from the State. And I want to say that quite clearly and quite strongly as a result of the evidence that we have heard now. I hope that on behalf of all of us, I leave absolutely no question about our intention.

Ms Ndeboni I'm very very pleased that you have come and would like to thank you and your family for being with you. Thanks very much.

------------------