MALOLO GILIFISI JWAAI: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Over to you Ntsiki.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Mr Jwaai, did you say your full names are Malolo Gilifisi Jwaai, is that so?

MR JWAAI: That is so.

ADV SANDI: You are an aged person who is 71 years old.

MR JWAAI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: You stay at Ndabakuzi?

MR JWAAI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Your story that you are going to present before us, can briefly be given in the statement here before me. Your son Thembalethu Jwaai was burnt to death in the police car in 1992. Is that Mr Jwaai?

MR JWAAI: Yes, Sir.

ADV SANDI: Before we can proceed with what took place on that day, I would like you to briefly state and give us a background about Thembalethu. How old was he?

MR JWAAI: Thembalethu was born in 1970.

ADV SANDI: Was he married during this period?

MR JWAAI: No, he was not yet married, he was not even yet to have been sent to the initiation school as per our traditional arrangements.

ADV SANDI: Did you say he was a policeman in Ciskei and whereabouts was he a policeman?

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MR JWAAI: He was a policeman in Ntlanzame.

ADV SANDI: When this took place, Mr Jwaai, you state that you were not here in this area.

MR JWAAI: No, I wasn't.

ADV SANDI: How did you learn about it?

MR JWAAI: Yes, I can explain how I learnt about it. Firstly, I would like to thank the Commission and the investigating unit for your good work that you have done. I am glad that I can talk about Thembalethu today, he is my child.

I have this to report. I would like to know who killed him. Secondly, what did he do. As a child who used to state what happened to him, even if we used to punish him as a child you would have an explanation of why you had to punish him. That is why I would like to see the people who are the perpetrators. He was very young.

I can report that he was in Std 10. Because of lack of means we couldn't take him further. I have eight children and there are ten of us, including the parents. He was the youngest.

When he passed Std 10, I ordered him to go and seek employmen because I am an old-age pensioner. You can realise that the pension is only meant for one person. One person can only be supported with this, and then he agreed to go and seek employment.

I took him to Ntlanzame and I knew that he would be staying in my houst at Ntlanzame because I own a house there, Unit 15, it is No 284. Then I was sure and confident that he would be realised and would behave himself as an owner of the house. So I liked that he was going to be there. I also stated that I will arrange that he gets an

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identity document and then he agreed to that.

Then we went to East London. There was a policeman who was a next-door neighbour, he was Mr Zelani and then I handed him over so that he can be assisted. This Zelani was a sergeant and then he asked whether he had documents. Then I admitted that he had none. Then he promised that he would make arrangements. Thembalethu obtained the identity document. He was enrolled in the police force.

He continued as a policeman. During his off days he would come and visit us as a family.

ADV SANDI: I would like you to please realise that I would like to make a request and I hope you won't be offended by this. Could you please confine yourself to what happened to your son. Before you go further, I would like you to answer this question for me. When did he join the police force in Ciskei, can you remember the year?

MR JWAAI: Yes, I think it was in 1992.

ADV SANDI: So he also, all this occurred in 1992?

MR JWAAI: Yes, I think it happened the same year, because he was still a new recruit.

ADV SANDI: Can you remember the situation there in the Ciskei during that period, who was the ruler there? Can you give us a brief explanation of what you can remember who was governing the Ciskei and how did he relate with the police?

MR JWAAI: The governor or the person who was governing was Gzozo. Everybody was not satisfied with what was happening.

ADV SANDI: Let's go back to the day when this happened. You said Thembalethu was also in the van of the police and they were performing their duties as they usually did.

MR JWAAI: I think I should state this. I have a daughter who is a sister to Thembalethu. She was attending school

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there. This is the report that I received from her. She states that as usual Thembalethu went on duty because his shift was from six to two in the afternoon. When he came back from work there was a van with one policeman. This person said, this person was light in complexion and he was bald. Then I cannot remember his name. This person said to Thembalethu I have come to fetch you so that you can go to work. He was reluctant do go, but in the end he did agree to go together. That is the last time when Thembalethu was seen. Days passed and then they didn't hear anything about where Thembalethu is.

There were two policemen who came and reported that Thembalethu was shot dead and then the van in which he was travelling was burnt out. They said please give us somebody who can accompany us to go to his father, because we do not know where to locate his father. Fortunately there was somebody who was able and prepared to escort them. Then I received these bad tidings. I was given the information that the van was also burnt out. Then I said I will go to this place where he used to stay. I was ordered to go to the mortuary.

The following day I went to the mortuary. When I got there I was ordered that I should identify bodies. During this period I could see that his body was already spoilt and then there was only a skeleton left. I couldn't identify him because it was only the skeleton which was there.

I had previously been to one of the persons who was keeping guard. When I thought over, I could realise that for any person there is something with which you can identify him. You know, the teeth of a person, it is not easy for the teeth to be burnt also. So I called this

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person and said please come and be here with me. Then I identified him with his teeth and then I signed for his body. Then I received the death certificate.

Thereafter I went to the scene of the accident. When I got there I could find ashes but there was no van. This was a surprise to me.

Then I tried to think of what I can do. I am not familiar with the police. I am not famliar with any people and at times we would see the police, who covered themselves with blankets and rugs. We would see people who would say they are afraid. The place was not a happy one to be in. I was able to see everything in this document. When I looked through the document I see also a van. There was a red car next to the van, and I saw this in the photograph. Apparently this car is the one which did this evil. I have the document here with me. I keep this in my suitcase.

Ever since I got it I never knew that there would be a Commission, but God helped me that I should be wise enough to keep these so that I can refer always. You can see the van, it is charred. There is a car just next to it, it is a red car and I think the occupants were the people who did the evil to my son.

Nobody knew about this car and it was said the people who did this, they ran away. Then there was somebody who came to say it was stolen and he had reported the car theft to the police.

Commission, I can state that, I can give you a clue and this could help you. Please go to the police who arrested him, who came to fetch him for work. He is the one who could give you information about all the details of what happened that day, because nobody knows what happened.

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I know sometimes, even if a policeman is off duty, he is fetched when it is necessary. But there is no explanation of what was happening, why was he called back.

I went to see the sergeant who signed for the van, so that it can be issued to come and collect him. But you could see that nobody was prepared to give me much information and details about what happened that day.

I think you can realise that I am old now. Even if I pause you must not be offended by that.

ADV SANDI: Mr Jwaai, the document or the paper that you have given to us now, was it the Daily Despatch?

MR JWAAI: Yes, it is.

ADV SANDI: Without evoking any pain from you when we revive what happened. But when I look in your statement, you state that the people who attacked him, took the person and put them at the back of the van, locked it up and then burnt them whilst they were inside?

MR JWAAI: Yes, I am just estimating, it is now my presumption. I saw the van that it was closed. Usually the van is not closed, it is kept open. But when you look at the paper you could see that there was somebody who closed it.

ADV SANDI: Were there people who were arrested or any suspects about this?

MR JWAAI: Yes, I heard rumours that some people, there were people who were arrested, but this was never reported to me directly. It was said those suspects were released. Please bear in mind that I am talking about hearsay. There were three people and then they were given bail of

R1 000,00.

ADV SANDI: Did you get a full report from the policemen as the people who experienced this? Were there any messages or

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any report about the court case?

MR JWAAI: No policeman ever came to us. I don't have any information about the police who might have come and reported what happened.

ADV SANDI: Did you ever go to court?

MR JWAAI: No, I didn't. It is just that the rumours that I heard. I was never offered an opportunity to attend the court hearings. I could see that there was no direction.

ADV SANDI: In other words you say the case was never continued?

MR JWAAI: Yes, I am saying so.

ADV SANDI: When last did you go to the police? Or did you ever go to the police to find out about the proceedings?

MR JWAAI: Yes, I did. When the Commission was in East London I went there to find out if I could get some money, because I was never compensated for what happened. I was informed that he was resigning from the police and I was informed that he couldn't get any benefits. Then I could obtain this card that he said that he was going. There is his signature. Then I couldn't do anything further, because it was him who said he was going out, so he cannot get out.

ADV SANDI: This document that you have with you now, would you like to leave it with us?

MR JWAAI: Yes, I would like that to happen.

ADV SANDI: Do you have any further information that you think that you could give us?

MR JWAAI: Yes, that is all I can say, but I have an appeal to make. I would like the Commission - I would like the investigating unit of the Commission to establish this: I would like to find out that even if he was resigning from work, we would like to find out what efforts did they make

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for his death, to compensate for his death. As I am here I boarded a Kombi to Butterworth. Should anything happen that I am in an accident, I know that the family would make me to get a third party or whatever. Compensation that I can get. If you have any reasons then as a person that you cannot request anything, then there are times when you are also called in by the authorities to state that the people should come forward and present their cases so that they can be compensated or get something. I would like to be assisted also with this money. I would like to go to this section which can assist with the compensation.

ADV SANDI: I am interested in what you are saying now, because I can understand that you also know the legal issues.

MR JWAAI: Yes, I have information about the legal issues because I am old. So because I am old I am wise. I think I don't have any contemporaries here amongst us. These are all children, but I can say there are two gentlemen who are old that I can say they are my peers. But I can state that I am unable to speak lies. Even if I am preaching it is very easy for me to preach and convey the message because when you are old you are wise, you cannot lie. You state things as they are. That is why we now highlight and emphasise that in the religious aspects only the aged and the elders should be allowed to participate in religious matters.

ADV SANDI: I am glad for what you have just said. I think you are wise really.

Can we retrace our steps a bit. What would you do if you can meet the perpetrators and what would you do if they ask for forgiveness.

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MR JWAAI: I thank you very much for your question. Forgiveness is what took place amongst our families a long time ago. When a memorial service was held in Bisho, I was requested to make a few words, and then I was able to stand up and I was able to convey this message, that all of us who are here, we will pass this road. Nobody knows when he would go, nobody knows the day when he would die. If there was a tape-recorder that day you would hear me saying and stating that everybody would be leaving this world.

There was a broadcast over what I said and there was a request to repeat what I was saying. Then I was taken to another room, the door was closed. I was alone and I was able to talk to the recorder and what I said was recorded. Then I went back to the gentleman with whom I was going with, and then the tape was put here again. There were some policemen and they also listened to what I said. I didn't understand that I was sending condolences to the family, and I was praised by my wife for what I did.

When I went back to my family, everybody was very happy, because I had made and cited examples which were strenghtening and supportive to my family. Even today, when they were crying at the time, they were looking at me. You know, everybody knows that when there is anything which is bad, which has taken place at home, the father is the one who is looked at. The funeral was well-prepared and I am proud to say that there were no problems.

The people were also meeting and they have gathered in my house and everybody was here to listen to me and then they wanted to hear all the arrangements during that time. Everybody thanked for what I said and stated. They were asking me who told me to say what I have said. I said no,

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this was impromptu but I was able to state my feelings. Gqozo also stood up the same day at the memorial service, and then he asked what is the use for you to stand up and say you are the members of these organisations; look here, you have somebody who is dead now.

I stated that we are all going to die. I realised that he was just talking and directing what he is saying to me, because I am also an ANC member, here is my card and I am the card-carrying member. The whole family are card-carrying members.

Why my son also joined this, is because I knew that the children should see somebody who can lead them. So that is why when we see the people in the rallies, we also want people to produce their cards. We know that the ANC is one of the best organisations in this country. I am talking about my organisation of which I am proud.

CHAIRPERSON: Order, please! I would request Mr Sandi to guide the gentleman here, so that we should not divert from what we are supposed to be doing.

ADV SANDI: Mr Jwaai, I would like to thank you very much for what you have just presented. It is clear that it is a wise man and a veteran who is now speaking. Do you wish to state anything further in addition to what you have said now or would you like us to regard that you have said everything that you have said everything that you wanted to say?

MR JWAAI: Yes, I have said all that I wanted to. But I have three requests.

I would like to get some benefits belonging to my son. Secondly, when the people are registered for employment, they are informed about the working conditions and they will be informed about their salaries and the agreement would be

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signed and understood by both parties. The government and the officer. Unfortunately my son died before all these could be arranged properly. Nobody knew that he was going to die. He also didn't know that he was going to die. So I would like him to get his benefits.

Thirdly, I am an old-age pensioner, which is inadequate. I have got a big family and I am left with the seven survivors and eight, including the mother. We are struggling very much, because my son was beginning to maintain and support the family. I had confidence in him. Because he would bring his whole salary to me.

I have these requests to make. The Government should please help me and assist me in the maintenance of the family. Even if they can exclude my wife, although she is regarded to be very young, I am going to share with her this pension that I am getting. I would like the Government to assist me with the school requirements in connection with my children. My last-born is doing Std 1. The little one said he would like to get R2,50 because the lady teacher said he is going to beat me if I don't bring the money. I ask what is the money meant for? He said it was meant for the school fees. I would like the Government to take over and assist me.

ADV SANDI: I thank you very much, Mr Jwaai. I am going to hand over to the Chairperson. I hope the Commission will attend to what you have requested. Thank you very much.

MR JWAAI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to understand clearly. When there was still this Ciskei independent country, the policemen were attacked usually.

MR JWAAI: Yes.

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CHAIRPERSON: So the community members were involved in the attacking of the police?

MR JWAAI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: During the time when your son died, was he together with other police?

MR JWAAI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: How many of them were there?

MR JWAAI: There were four of men. I don't think I can say anything about them because I was not given the mandate to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the one who fetched him also a policeman?

MR JWAAI: Yes, he was also a policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he one of the deceased?

MR JWAAI: I am not quite clear about that. I do not know where he is. One of them ran away whilst they were being locked up in the van. When you read the newspaper, the driver was the one who was killed. When he fell there were others who were at the back and then it is written there in the paper, you can see that, the attacker shot the tank, the petrol tank and then the car was burnt. We hear this from the community members, because they said one of the policemen ran away, but the police do not want to come out so that he can come forward and give us information.

CHAIRPERSON: Were there any funds in the Ciskei to meet the needs of the police who have been injured?

MR JWAAI: I do not know, because I am staying here in the Transkei, I just visit the Ciskei, but I don't know the proceedings in the Ciskei.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you receive any compensation from the Ciskei Government?

MR JWAAI: No, it was said he was resigning from the

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service.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR JWAAI: Can I something? I only got the insurance from the Old Mutual because he was a member of the Old Mutual insurance. I think I got enough from the Old Mutual insurance.

CHAIRPERSON: My last question is, what did the authorities say in the Ciskei?

MR JWAAI: I can't hear properly.

CHAIRPERSON: I am asking what did the authorities from the Ciskeian Government say to you about the death of your son?

MR JWAAI: Nothing came from them. I was always waiting for them to call me, but I was never called in. That is why I thought that I should also come here to the Truth Commission. I had a file which was kept at the magistrate's office. As I understand it, we were supposed to have been called and compensated. But each time when we go and find out about it, it is said that nothing has been received. So I stated that then to these officials who are working at the magistrate's offices, I would like to have the file so that I can present it to the Commission. I was informed that no, the file was taken by the police and they took it to the Commission. I realise that they were just deceiving me.

I believe that I am the one who was supposed to take the file and bring it to you. I didn't think that the police could take that responsibility for me. Then I requested that they should give me the particulars of this girl. I have all the particulars. That person is a sergeant now.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you very much, Mr Jwaai, for all the details that you have given us. As the Commission we are prepared to make investigations. We would like to know the

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details surrounding the death of your son. We would like you to please get your paper, the newspaper that you have kept for quite a long time, but we would like to have a copy. We would also give you the paper back. If we need any further details from you we will contact you. We will make contact with you so that we can get as much details as possible, when we are doing our investigations. We have got the investigation unit, which would be busy trying to find out and dig out the information about the atrocities that took place previously.

Thank you very much.

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