MR ALLY: You are Mrs Munyai, welcome, thanks for coming to testify. Before I ask you to take us through your statement, I will just ask if you will take the oath with Commissioner Lyster.

ENNIE MUNYAI: (sworn states)

MR ALLY: Ms Munyai, you've come before us to speak about the death of your son Moses Munyai. I will ask now if you will just please relate to us in your own words, what happened to Moses and how Moses was killed.

MS MUNYAI: In 1980, whilst I was at work at Nyani hospital, most of the people don't know, but it is commonly known as Ntume, whilst I was working there, on the third week three police arrived.

When they arrived they asked several questions on Ennie Munyai. Some people came to the place where I was working and called me. I told them to call the people who were looking for me and when they arrived, I realised that they were policemen.

They were in plain clothes, they were in private clothes. They said they wanted to talk to me and I said how do you think you can talk to me in such a busy place, they said yes, we are going to talk to you right away, here.

And my colleagues left. They went out. I was left with them, just at Ntume. They told me that your, they wanted to know where my son was and I asked them as to who

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are you referring to and they said we are referring to Moses Munyai.

I said Moses Munyai normally goes and come back and they asked me as to where does he go and I said, look he does have some relatives. Sometimes he goes to Vleifontein, sometimes to Krugersdorp where his sister was or at (indistinct) at my cousin and elsewhere.

They said to me do you perhaps know that you gave money to Moses Munyai and I asked them money for what and they said, you gave him money just to go everywhere to destroy people's property. And I said no, I only gave him money for schooling because he was in standard ten.

Just after that, do you think that I gave him money to leave and they said, yes. And I asked them to go where and they said, you are the only person who knows. And I said, no I don't know anything. I only know that if he leaves, he comes back.

They were writing down whatever I was saying. And they said do you know what, such kind of a child, we called him or referred to him as a gorilla. I said, am I the mother to a gorilla, are you saying my son is a gorilla? Is he a gorilla, is my son a gorilla? Is he no longer called Moses? What kind of a gorilla, who is that gorilla?

They wrote down and they finished writing. After that they said we will be coming back. I said are you through, they said yes, they are through. I said, okay, fine. They went. That was eight o'clock then, they disappeared, they disappeared for good and I thought maybe that was the end of it.

It was not the end. They had to come back around eight o'clock on the third week. They were three then. They said VENDA HEARING TRC/NORTH WEST

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yes, we are back. You have to tell us, tell us the truth and I said I don't have any other truth that I can tell you.

If that child that you are referring to, you want him, go and search for him, I cannot search for him. What are you doing because wherever he might be, he might be worried or he is troubled.

And they said you told me a lot of stories about the fact that if he comes back, he will be shooting at you. I said no. While I appreciate that, I appreciate that and then I'll leave this country.

There is no problem at all regarding him. He said why do you say this so freely as if you are not feeling any pain? I said okay, I am feeling pain for you are really paining me about my son, because I know that my son is a scholar and he was in standard ten and I was the one who was educating him.

It went on and on like that, while they were writing, they disappeared again. They disappeared again. In 1981 when they came back, they came up with stories and said you, your gorilla has destroyed. And I asked them where and they said at Sebasa and I asked them if they had seen him?

Have you seen him? They said you cannot see a gorilla he just shrugged and left. I said, well, why do you bring all this to me, why don't you arrest him? Why didn't you arrest my son?

Why didn't you arrest my son and put him in a cell and interrogate him as to why he was shooting at the police station or bombing the police station in 1981? It went on like that, it went on like that, it went on like that, it went on like that. Then three men came again at 1984.

One of them is called Ramoswa, because I didn't know

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him very well. I looked at him clearly as he was coming where I was working and they said to me which one is your main office, I referred them to my main office.

Which belonged to Mr Machawo in our main office, Matewa and I indicated them, I gestured to them and said, there it is and they said, well let's go and I said are you going with me and they said yes. I left with them and we knocked at the office and we got the old man who was seated there in his seat and we entered with the three men and they said to Mr Machawo, they were just gesturing using his eye, they said, do you know us?

Do you know us? The old man said no, I do not know you. They said don't you know anybody here, he said no I do not know you. They said we are coming here for this old woman, we want to sit with her for a while and the old man said to one colleague of his, called Boal, to bring some books from his office so that the people should be accommodated there.

There are some foreigners. I went straight to that office, a very hidden office. When I got into the office, they sat down, looked at me. They looked at me without saying anything, not doing anything. And I looked at them as well.

Thereafter they said is Moses your son and I said yes. They said is he your right child, I said yes. They said (indistinct), your son is late, he is dead, that was in 1984 and I asked them are you saying he is dead and they said, right now when you leave here, you tell your senior and you can see how to settle this matter and four o'clock we are coming to take you.

We are taking you to Pietersburg. We just left the

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(indistinct). When they left and when I also left, I went to my senior. When I explained to them, they said you're better get on the way now. I got on the way on foot.

I didn't even know where I was going. As I was walking I thought of Ramasiara school, I thought of my other child, Yvonne, who was then in standard eight.

On arrival I realised that the small kids were playing. Some of them were in classes playing. I was accommodated by one mistress who received me. When she came to me, she said have you come to us today and I said yes.

Could I please have Yvonne. The mistress said, I don't know as to whether she had realised then, she just shed tears then and I asked her why she was doing that and I said, please may I have Yvonne. If you don't want Yvonne coming, please call the principal, I want to address this to the principal.

The mistress was just distressed and tired and by then I was also so tired, I was terribly tired. When the principal was called, on his arrival he asked me to go to the office. When I went to the office, he was just perplexed, he didn't even know what to say or do.

He said, man, but he couldn't, I don't know what to do. I said to him please call Yvonne for me, I want to talk to her. So he went to the class, he called Yvonne. When Yvonne came, she said Mama, have you come, what's wrong. I said keep quiet, I said Yvonne, your brother is dead, Moses Munyai.

Yvonne we are leaving now. Then we left. When we had gone out the principal called the other teacher and asked him to take us back to where we were coming from home. The other teacher took his van, we got into the van and went

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home.

And when we arrived home, Yvonne said Mama now, what are we doing and I said please I want to send you my daughter. You must go to Vleifontein, go and call the aunt now. Go and call the cousin. Mabel I just don't know how to tell, she is just like a sickly person, she is depressed. She can cry now till late in the night and even sunrise. I just didn't know what to do with her. She was working at (indistinct)

But then I thought over this matter and I said I'll be bold. I found Wone who was just above there and saw me and said, please come here because he knew how to speak Venda.

On arrival I addressed, I asked for my daughter and I explain about the matter and Mabel was called. When Mabel arrived, just when she was told, Mabel fell, she just fell down.

The Indians came to help, just to assist her and they left with her, since they knew where she was staying, they put her there and I left with Aneli who then escorted me to the gate.

When I returned from (indistinct) I thought of my younger sister, the one who is sitting here and my other sister who was working at Mbewo. When I arrived there, I realised that my sister was gone then. She had just left then and now how am I going to talk to this one?

I merely said okay, phone and I said don't worry, I'll use the phone at home. I said to the other daughter Yvonne, please call your brother. When she was calling the brother, he was at Tsandma but then he was permanently staying in Folowo there, he had just gone to Tsandama on a kind of work, since he is he farmer or somebody dealing with

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agriculture.

He was not there, when he came back he got the explanation that we were looking for him, we were looking for him at home, referring to this one.

After that sometimes in the evening, around six o'clock this one was coming back. On arrival, the people from Vleifontein were already there, the aunt and the cousin and Yvonne as well.

Thereafter the aunt whilst he was still there, she phoned (indistinct) and we were told that we don't have a helper. These people who were brothers to my husband arrived and wanted to know as to what was happening. It hen explained.

The one who was working at (indistinct), driving the ambulance, I explained to this person and said okay, fine. The aunt to this one said okay, fine let's pray then we prayed. After finishing praying, the van was just outside.

There was no garage and people were stealing. I thought of the troubles that I was undergoing. I left with these people, with my younger sister and my elder sister and this one and Yvonne, together with myself and a cousin.

We were seven. This one left on his aunt's van, it was the four of them and we were on the VM, the black one. We were taken there right at four o'clock at dawn.

MR ALLY: I know you are telling a very painful story but I'd like us to, if you don't mind, I must apologise for not having welcomed your family members who are with you, who came to support you, but if we can please focus on Moses your son, because that is who you really want to speak about and who was killed. If you could just tell us a bit about Moses please.

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What kind of person he was and something about, if you do know, about his political views? If that is okay with you.

MS MUNYAI: Well about political matters, I didn't know. I didn't even know that he was a political activist, because by then I was nicknamed mother of the gorilla. I didn't know anything, but my son's name was spoilt.

When we arrived at Pietersburg, oh sorry, don't worry, please excuse me, when we arrived in Pietersburg, the White men said some people were there. They found me right on a seat and said he was not there, he had gone to (indistinct) but these ones who are in Louis Trichard had said he was in Pietersburg.

But now they were saying he was in (indistinct). When I was in (indistinct), when I arrived in Potgietersrus and parked our car there, the driver who was driving, a White man, went in and they came out.

They went to the mortuary. After they had gone to the mortuary, they called me and they said you are the mother of the child. I went there and when I was to be shown my son, they said right now, we want to bury him.

They took him from the ... and after I had seen him, I said I would like other people to see him, because I've got his brother, I've got sisters, I've got aunt and a cousin, they want to see him. They allowed me to do that, they agreed on that and one Tsangaan guy was asked to call him, and they came and they saw the late son of mine.

And everybody was just saying, oh, Moses, oh, Moses. He was just laying there, dead. Thereafter they said okay, fine, they closed, they said let's go and bury.

They asked these other people to leave and when they

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have left they said okay fine, you are leaving and when I was left, they said are you burying him here, I said yes and I said I had just gone to (indistinct). I am a Louis Trichard resident. That White man said how and I said, yes, I stay in Louis Trichard. And he said, okay let me phone Pretoria and Louis Trichard.

Louis Trichard's people accepted me, Pretoria people accepted me, they said okay, fine take your son, your late son. Just when I was trying to ask for the coffin, they said, no we cannot give you a coffin. So if I told you we were burying, but we want to leave with him.

When I was still thinking about that, when I left, I told an aunt and said okay, that's okay. They went to Standard Bank together with us. They drew some money. We didn't even know the place and we asked for somebody, a boy, to take us to the place where they sell coffins.

On our coming back, when they took him from the place, my son wanted to go to the van just to wipe his face, they said you are wasting my time, take your person and leave. They took the corpse, the two of them, the cousin and him, they just put him on, whilst they were two, just and they closed and put it on a van and we drove away.

Just before we left, they said never stop on the way. All the police vans and private vans were escorting, were saying no stopping on the way. Really indeed, we didn't stop until we arrived at Tsicotho.

Right there at Tsicotho three special branches were already there, there were three that were given to us. My other young sister was there, who was with me in Louis Trichard and the other grandson of my sister who went to the graveyard.

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When we were at the cemetery there was no prayer at all. Prayers was not offered, nothing at all. They just rushed us to say okay, this other grave, are you able to see them, there are three.

I said, yes, I am able to see them. These graves were erected here some time. That son of mine was taken out of the van. What really pained me was when this child had to go down, right deep down in the grave and the cousin was letting the box, when those people were standing aside. The fly machine was flying above, it was just checking as to how many we were, we were ten only.

He carried the coffin and put it down just below on the grave and then we had to cover the grave. We covered the grave. Nothing at all, then we left. That's all I can say, that really pained me, it really pains me even now.

Now he is dead, he was 24 years then.

MR ALLY: You've given us a very full account of what happened to your son right from the time that your son went into exile, the harassment that you continually experienced by the police wanting to know about your son and where he was and things that were said about you - mother of a gorilla because your son had gone into political exile and his death and the actual funeral itself, so I am not going to keep you much longer, because you've been with us for a little while now.

Just to ask you one or two questions which will just assist us in trying to get as full a picture as possible. Just the one question, in your statement you speak about a death certificate, I am not sure whether you actually gave a copy of that death certificate to somebody from the Truth Commission, did you?

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MS MUNYAI: Yes, I was having it when I was writing a statement here and I've got it here now.

MR ALLY: If we could arrange with somebody from the Truth Commission to get a copy of the death certificate, that is very important for us in our follow up work.

And then just to ask whether you had ever been contacted by the ANC, I assume it was MK that your son went to join or was it another political organisation, do you know? Did any political organisation ever come back to you and speak to you about your son?

MS MUNYAI: No, no one came, no political organisation came to me.

MR ALLY: And are you aware if there was ever a court case, an inquest into your son's death? No investigations by police into the cause of your son's death or by the courts?

MS MUNYAI: Nothing.

MR ALLY: Thank you Mama Munyai, I don't think ...

MR MANTHATA: Ms Munyai, did you ever find out from the ANC leadership or even PAC and others whether your son ever belonged anywhere in their groups?

MS MUNYAI: Are you talking to me?

MR MANTHATA: Yes.

MS MUNYAI: What kind of political organisation are you talking about? I am illiterate, I used to hear that those people were fighting for the country.

MR MANTHATA: You see at this stage or at those time, we have those organisations within the country, I think we have offices of ANC in Sebasa, we should be having offices of PAC in Sebasa, could you please try to find out whether any of these groupings could know about Moses Munyai, whether he was ever in their bookings and what has been done.

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I'm saying this as I said yesterday, because the Government has a pension scheme for the people who were involved in the struggle against apartheid, those who died and those who might have been in prison for long periods of time.

So I think you need assistance in this direction. I rest my case, thank you.

MS MUNYAI: While he was trying to make that the country will be better.

MR ALLY: Thank you Mama, for coming and speaking to us about your son and we can all see that it was very difficult and painful for you to relive all of these events.

We from the Truth Commission will certainly try and find answers to some of the questions which came up during your testimony about whether there was an inquest or not, but also about which political organisation your son belonged to and we will really try to get that information back to you.

I must just also say that because there are so many statements that we get in, so many people coming forward, that often we cannot get to all of those things immediately, so you must just bear with us, if we don't have the answer straight away or don't get back to you immediately, we have made an undertaking that we will try to the best of our ability to investigate all the cases, all people who come forward and make statements.

Thank you very much for coming to speak to us and go well.

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