MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, the next matter will that of Andile Shiceka, Walter Tanda and Gcinikhaya Makoma. They are all represented by Mr Norman Arendse. He is available for us to proceed, and the applicants are also here.
CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear what you said?
MR MAPOMA: He is available Chairperson, he is here.
CHAIRPERSON: He is here.
MR MAPOMA: And the applicants are also here.
CHAIRPERSON: Can we make a beginning?
MR MAPOMA: Yes, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR ARENDSE: Chairperson, Honourable Members of the Committee, I appear together with my colleague, Advocate Vuyani Ngalwana: N-G-A-L-W-A-N-A. Both of us are from the Cape Bar. We appear on behalf of the three applicants in this matter, Andile Shiceka, Walter Tanda and Gcinikhaya Makoma.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR ARENDSE: Chairperson, if I may with your leave, just arrange the order in which the matter appears in front of you in the bundle, purely for the sake of convenience. If I may call Walter Tanda first and then Makoma second, and then lastly, Shiceka.
You will notice from the bundle that the matter in respect of which the applicants appear together, either one or both of them, are only in respect of the second, the Khayelitsha Train Station attack, and then the last one, the Khayelitsha Police Vehicle attack. Apart from that, Tanda and Shiceka appear very much on their own. I propose dealing with the last one first, the Khayelitsha Police Vehicle Attack, where Tanda and Makoma appear together.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed.
MR ARENDSE: Thank you Chairperson.
MR MAPOMA: Excuse me Mr Chairman, there is next to me, Mr Warner who appears for one of the victims. I would ask him to place himself on record.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Warner? I'm sorry I overlooked you Mr Warner.
MR WARNER: I appear on behalf of Miss Amanda Warner, one of the victims in the Claremont Stake Restaurant Shooting.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. So the present application, the Khayelitsha Police Vehicle Attack is not concerned?
MR WARNER: Not at all Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Very well, thank you very much.
MR WARNER: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do proceed Mr Arendse.
MR ARENDSE: Mr Chairperson, if I may call one, Walter Falibango Tanda.
WALTER FALIBANGO TANDA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Will he be given evidence for an interpreter?
EXAMINATION BY MR ARENDSE: Yes, Chairperson. Thank
you Chairperson.
Mr Tanda, what is your age?
MR TANDA: I am 38 years old.
MR ARENDSE: What are you doing at the moment, are you working, and if so, where are you working?
MR TANDA: I'm serving in the National Defence Force in Walmasdal(?), Pretoria.
CHAIRPERSON: I can't hear his answer. I'm sorry about that. Is he speaking in the mike?
MR TANDA: I'm serving in the National Defence Force in Pretoria at Walmasdal.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what was the answer?
MR ARENDSE: Please repeat the answer.
MR TANDA: I'm serving in the National Defence Force in Pretoria at Walmasdal.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
INTERPRETER: Can you hear me now? He is serving in the National Defence Force in Pretoria at Walmasdal.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR ARENDSE: Thank you.
And you said just before that, that your age was 38?
MR TANDA: Yes, I'm 38 years old.
MR ARENDSE: When you're not in the army, where do you stay?
MR TANDA: I stay at Molteno in the Eastern Cape in number 1184 in New Location.
MR ARENDSE: How long have you now been in the army, in the Defence Force?
MR TANDA: I started on the 1st of July this year, 1998.
MR ARENDSE: Before July 1998, what was your status, what was your position?
MR TANDA: I was in prison. I was released on the 3rd of June. I received amnesty.
MR ARENDSE: In respect of which offence?
MR TANDA: It's about the Newcastle Crazy Disco Attack.
MR ARENDSE: When did that attack happen?
MR TANDA: That was in 1994 on the 14th of February.
MR ARENDSE: That attack is also mentioned by you in your amnesty application, is that correct?
MR TANDA: That is correct.
MR ARENDSE: Just for the record, Chairperson, I refer to page 32 of the record.
Did you go to school Walter?
MR TANDA: A little bit.
MR ARENDSE: What do you mean by a little bit, until what standard did you go to school?
MR TANDA: I went up until standard two. Due to some problems in the family I couldn't go on.
MR ARENDSE: When did you leave school?
MR TANDA: It was in 1972.
MR ARENDSE: In 1972. And since 1972, what did you do?
MR TANDA: I was doing nothing, I was just sitting at home.
MR ARENDSE: Did you become involved in politics at all?
MR TANDA: Yes.
MR ARENDSE: And when was that? When did you become involved in politics for the first time?
MR TANDA: That was in 1982. In 1990 I became - In 1982 I was involved with the PAC and then in 1990 I became the member of the Azanian People's Liberation Army.
MR ARENDSE: How did you become involved with what is referred to as APLA? How did you become involved? Did you join out of your own, were you asked to join?
MR TANDA: I was recruited and I was also satisfied because I could see that that was a way for me to fight for liberation.
MR ARENDSE: Is the reason why you joined APLA, or tell us why you joined APLA.
MR TANDA: The reason for me to join APLA, I realised that the African land was taken from them and they were victims and they were being oppressed. They were victimised by the South African Police and even the South African Defence Force was victimising them. So I saw the need for me to get involved with the APLA and be part of the people who are going to liberate Africa, to protect, to liberate Africans from the apartheid regime.
MR ARENDSE: And how were you going to do that, how were you going to liberate the African people from the regime?
MR TANDA: I had to obey the orders from the commander of APLA and be involved in the operations.
MR ARENDSE: Okay. Now tell us about the - the operations that you were involved in, we know now you were involved in the New Caste Crazy Beat Disco matter, where you applied for amnesty and you have been granted amnesty. We know about that one. Now the others in respect of which you are applying for amnesty are some of the ones we are going to deal with today.
Now before we do that, can you just perhaps tell the Committee, you were born in the Eastern Cape, did you at any stage come to Cape Town?
MR TANDA: I once came to Cape Town when I was deployed here in 1990 although I was born in the Eastern Cape in Molteno.
MR ARENDSE: Who deployed you?
MR TANDA: The only names that I know is Mzala, Mandla and Jones. Those were the names that I was using, we were using for the comrade who deployed me here in Cape Town.
MR ARENDSE: Are those three different comrades or they one and the same person, this Mandla, Power, Jones or are they different persons?
MR TANDA: It's one person but we were using different code names. For security reasons we were using different code names for one person.
MR ARENDSE: When is the last time that you saw this person who has these various names?
CHAIRPERSON: And by what name are we going to be referring to him here?
MR ARENDSE: When last did you Mandla, Power, Mzala or Jones? You've said they are one and the same person.
MR TANDA: I last saw him in 1994, in 1994 when he was giving me instructions to go to Natal in Newcastle. After that I was arrested, I couldn't see him again.
MR ARENDSE: Now when you were deployed to Cape Town or to come to Cape Town, what were your instructions? Can you tell us what your instructions were?
MR TANDA: The instruction was to recruit Africans and establish APLA units and train comrades for the task force, the task force that would defend the members of the PAC and to ensure no enemies infiltrate the PAC, and to ensure that the APLA soldiers who are coming, I should welcome those and make sure that the operations here in Cape Town are going on.
MR ARENDSE: Were you also instructed to carry out any operations?
MR TANDA: That is so.
MR ARENDSE: When you instructed to carry out operations, who were to be the targets? The operations were to be carried out against whom?
MR TANDA: Our targets were people like the SAP, SADF and whites because those were the people who were oppressing the Africans. As everyone knows about this history of South Africa, that the land of the Africans were taken from the Africans. We never had rights as Africans in South Africa.
MR ARENDSE: The targets, whose task was it to identify the targets?
MR TANDA: The commander of the unit was the one who would take a decision about the target to be attacked and monitor that target.
MR ARENDSE: So these targets which we're going to deal with now, would it be correct that you were responsible for identifying them as targets, in your capacity as unit commander?
MR TANDA: That is so.
MR ARENDSE: Now let's deal with the first one: The Khayelitsha Police Vehicle Attack in Zolo Budd Road or Drive, I think it's also referred to. This happened towards the end of 1992, is that correct?
MR TANDA: Correct.
MR ARENDSE: You were involved in the attack with someone by the name of Mtura: M-T-U-R-A, and together with Gcinikhaya Makoma, is that correct?
MR TANDA: Correct.
MR ARENDSE: Tell us about the attack, how did it come about?
MR TANDA: The two people here, Mtura and one comrade and the third comrade was Gcinikhaya Makoma. Mtura came in the company of one comrade. When they came I had to contact Mzala as my commander. I wanted to know what was happening. I wanted to know whether these comrades were here to work in Cape Town.
I later realised that they were supposed to work in the area of Transvaal. Mtura said these comrades should go. They were to be involved in an operation and leave Cape Town thereafter.
CHAIRPERSON: Which comrade was supposed to go?
MR TANDA: It was Mtura and one other comrade, I don't know his name.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you said: "Mtura said that these comrades should go".
MR TANDA: It is Mandla who said I must involve them in an operation. It's Mandla who was my commander.
MR ARENDSE: So do I understand you correctly that Mtura and one other person came to your house and Mandla then instructed you to involve the two of them in this particular operation?
MR TANDA: That is correct, that is so.
MR ARENDSE: So it would have been you, Mtura, the other person who is not known to you, and Makoma. The four of you were involved in this operation?
MR TANDA: That is correct.
MR ARENDSE: Were all of them members of APLA?
MR TANDA: Mtura and the other comrade were a members of APLA and Gcinikhaya Makoma was still receiving training from the task force. He was a very disciplined person and also obedient.
MR ARENDSE: How did Makoma become involved in this operation? Was he also instructed by Mzala or did you instruct him, how did he get involved?
MR TANDA: I'm the person who instructed him to be involved, to get involved because we needed a person who was going to give a signal when the other people would be busy doing something else. Makoma and the other comrade were there to give a signal whenever the police van was coming from the bushes. If it's coming from Makoma's side, therefore he would give a signal and if it was coming from the direction of the other comrade the other comrade would also give a signal because we wouldn't see it coming.
MR ARENDSE: So the operation was to attack a police van, is that correct?
MR TANDA: That is correct.
MR ARENDSE: You attacked the van with weapons?
MR TANDA: Yes, that is correct.
MR ARENDSE: Tell us about the weapons used during this attack.
MR TANDA: I used an R4 rifle, Mtura had an R4 rifle and I gave Gcinikhaya Makoma an AK47 and I gave the other comrade an AK47.
MR ARENDSE: And just tell us about the operation itself, did it take place, what time of the day did it take place?
MR TANDA: It was late in the night. I'm not sure about the time, but it was late in the night.
MR ARENDSE: And did you fire on the van?
MR TANDA: Yes, I shot at the vehicle and Mtura did so, though my firearm locked.
MR ARENDSE: So was it only you and Mtura who shot at the van?
MR TANDA: Yes.
MR ARENDSE: What was the purpose of the attack, why did you attack the van?
MR TANDA: The purpose, we wanted to hit the police van and when it stops and I would issue an order to those people who were therefore signal, I would order them to disarm these police so as to get more weapons for the other soldiers.
MR ARENDSE: When you shot at the van did the van stop?
MR TANDA: No, it did not stop because my firearm locked when it was supposed to release the third bullet. So the operation was not successful because the van couldn't stop.
MR ARENDSE: So you regarded this as an unsuccessful operation?
MR TANDA: Yes, that's correct.
MR ARENDSE: Did you report the operation to the APLA High Command?
MR TANDA: Yes, after that I phoned Mzala and I told him about this operation and I told him that the operation was not successful. I told him that Mtura and the other comrade left Cape Town. They left Cape Town the following day.
MR ARENDSE: And what happened to Makoma?
MR TANDA: After the operation I released Gcinikhaya Makoma to go back to his family.
MR ARENDSE: Was Makoma from Cape Town?
MR TANDA: Yes, he was residing at Site C.
MR ARENDSE: Do you know what happened - you shot at the van, do you know whether - I take it you hit the van?
MR TANDA: Yes, though I'm not sure whether anyone was injured but I'm sure that no-one died there during that attack.
MR ARENDSE: Okay.
ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Arendse.
Mr Tanda, did the shots hit the body of the police vehicle?
MR TANDA: Yes.
ADV SANDI: You fired two shots, then you AK47 locked, is that what you said?
MR TANDA: It locked when it was supposed to release the third bullet, my firearm locked.
ADV SANDI: Mtura had also fired a shot at the vehicle?
MR TANDA: Yes.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
MR ARENDSE: Walter, were you charged criminally with this particular offence?
MR TANDA: No.
MR ARENDSE: Did you go to court for it?
MR TANDA: No, I never appeared but I am the one who released that information when I was filling in the application form. I was never charged for the offence.
MR ARENDSE: Maybe we can just move on then to the next offence in respect of which you seek amnesty. This is the Cross Roads Police Attack.
Now your orders you received from Mzala, is that correct? Directly?
MR TANDA: Yes, correct.
CHAIRPERSON: For this particular attack?
MR TANDA: I got order from Mzala because I used to connect with him telephonically and he said I must involve Africans in operations.
MR ARENDSE: Did it also include the Cross Roads Police Attack?
MR TANDA: Yes.
MR ARENDSE: Now is it correct that you carried out this particular attack?
MR TANDA: I do not want to say the attack was successfully carried out but I must say that there were people who were killed because the intention of the attack was to disarm those people.
MR ARENDSE: Now you were accompanied during this attack by other persons, who were they?
MR TANDA: I was with Simon and Graham.
MR ARENDSE: Do you know them by any other name?
MR TANDA: No.
MR ARENDSE: When is the last time you saw either or both of them?
MR TANDA: After that I used to meet them and I last saw them in 1993 when I left Cape Town.
MR ARENDSE: They're not here today, just for the record? They're not here today?
MR TANDA: Yes, they are not here.
MR ARENDSE: Where did you meet them? I'm coming back to before the attack now, where did you meet them?
MR TANDA: They were Africans that I used to work with, that is Graham and another member. We used to train under ...[inaudible]
MR ARENDSE: Were they members of your unit or were they from some other unit or were they deployed to Cape Town to assist you?
MR TANDA: No, they were under my command.
MR ARENDSE: In your unit?
MR TANDA: Yes.
MR ARENDSE: When - you said earlier that you were, as commander of the unit you were responsible for identifying the targets, was this particular attack also as a result of your identification of the target?
MR TANDA: It is I who identified the target.
MR ARENDSE: Now the target in this case were two policeman or what you thought were policemen, is that right?
MR TANDA: Yes.
MR ARENDSE: And this particular incident happened not far from the Cross Roads police Station, is that correct?
MR TANDA: Correct.
MR ARENDSE: Why did you think that the two person you attacked were policemen?
MR TANDA: You see policemen use a uniform and their uniform is different to other uniforms. The general public do not wear uniforms.
MR ARENDSE: Chairperson, just for the record, if the Committee peruses the police docket in this matter, it appears from the photographs in the docket that both the deceased were wearing blue coloured uniforms.
Now these two policemen, they were not in a vehicle, they were walking, they were on foot, is that right?
MR TANDA: Yes, correct.
MR ARENDSE: Where were they walking?
MR TANDA: In front of other some shacks, moving from the direction of the police station of Cross Roads. When I saw them I said we must go between the shacks and Graham and Simon must be on the side of the police station with the intention to have someone giving me some firing cover, in order to prevent policemen who might appear later, from assassinating me.
They came on as they were moving on foot and they were within reach of my fire. When they were within reach I then shot at them with an AK47. When they fell I said to Graham he must disarm them. We gave Graham firing cover and when that happened a kombi appeared and it lit directly in our direction, that is where I said: "Let us withdraw", because I was avoiding a situation of us being identified.
MR ARENDSE: Now ...[intervention]
MR TANDA: ...[no English translation] to avoid the people in the kombi identifying us because it had lit on us at the time.
MR ARENDSE: Why did you shoot at these policemen, were they armed?
MR TANDA: You see a policeman in uniform, it becomes a very unusual thing that he walks around without his weapon whilst he is in uniform. The uniform is also - you wear a uniform plus your firearm generally, that's what I know.
CHAIRPERSON: The question was, you told Graham to disarm them, did Graham disarm them? Did he recover or get any arms from them?
MR TANDA: No, he could not get any weapons from them because when that happened a kombi appeared and then I said we must retreat.
MR ARENDSE: So you don't know whether they were in fact armed or not?
MR TANDA: That is correct. As I've said, to a policeman his uniform is together with his firearm and I saw that there were people coming from the police station in uniform, I thought they must be armed as they are on duty. They were on duty at the time.
MR ARENDSE: Now after the attack you, Graham was unable to search them and find out whether in fact they had arms, what did you do then?
MR TANDA: We returned to the house we used. If I want to see somebody I would use that house as a shack(?) point. That is where we returned to.
MR ARENDSE: Where was this house?
MR TANDA: At Site C.
MR ARENDSE: At Site C in Khayelitsha?
MR TANDA: Yes.
MR ARENDSE: I'm not sure whether it's still the case, but at the time it was a squatter camp, is that right?
MR TANDA: It is still a shack place.
MR ARENDSE: Now do you know what happened to these policemen or these two persons?
MR TANDA: You see, the following day I woke up the following morning and went to where this attack occurred and I looked around and I noticed that indeed two policemen were lying there and the public had gathered there and investigation officers were on the scene. After that I reported the matter, the whole operation to Mzala.
MR ARENDSE: What did you say to Mzala?
MR TANDA: I told him that two policemen had passed away in that operation and that that operation can be claimed under APLA, though the weapons and the ammunition used could not be retrieved from the policemen because we were disturbed by that kombi that lit on us.
ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Arendse.
That kombi, the kombi you're talking about, did it come and stop there at the scene where these police were shot?
MR TANDA: It was on the road. The driver stopped the kombi and lit directly at the area where this whole operation was on.
ADV SANDI: Yes, but it came and passed?
MR TANDA: No, it did not pass, it stopped.
ADV SANDI: Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: A bit strange isn't it? This happened late at night, the kombi arrives, they see policemen shot, they do nothing about it, because the next morning you go there and the policemen are still lying there. That is strange isn't it?
MR TANDA: Yes, it may surprise you, though I do not know why those people did not go and report this matter and why those policemen were still lying on the road even the following morning. I would not know.
ADV SANDI: This shack Mr Tanda, you say you went back to, was some sort of a hide-out for you?
MR TANDA: Yes, it was a place I used. Even before we go on operations, that is where we meet to discuss and then from there we move to whatever scene of operation.
ADV SANDI: How far was that shack from the place where the police had been shot?
MR TANDA: Site C is at Khayelitsha and the policemen were attacked at Cross Roads, next to the Cross Roads Police Station.
ADV SANDI: You mean to say that the - I want to be sure that I understand you clearly, you mean to say that the shack was far from the scene where the police had been shot?
MR TANDA: Yes, far.
DR TSOTSI: The place where the police fell, was that a public road? The road where you shot the policemen, was that a public road or a private road?
MR TANDA: Yes, it was a footpath but where you could use a car also because it was an open veld of sorts.
ADV SANDI: Did it have lights or was it dark in that area?
MR TANDA: There are lights at Cross Roads, that's why I could see them from a distance and said we must hide, using a shack as our cover. And where we were there was no bright lighting. It was darkish but you could see someone from a distance.
ADV SANDI: How did you see the colour and type of uniform these two people were wearing?
MR TANDA: I saw it when these people were in the street between the houses made of bricks, going towards the direction of the shacks.
CHAIRPERSON: You say: "street", is that the same thing that you talked about as a footpath?
MR TANDA: If you can see the police station at Cross Roads there is a street from the police station and then a street going this way towards the houses made of bricks. There is a street that crosses towards the shacks.
CHAIRPERSON: The point was this that I heard the word: "footpath" being given as the place where the shooting was done. Was it a footpath which was sometimes used by motorcars as you said, or is it a street that is well lit?
MR TANDA: I said when I answered this question, that people on foot can walk on it, even a person can use a car to drive because it's an open field of sort.
CHAIRPERSON: So it is not a street?
MR TANDA: No, it is not a street.
MR ARENDSE: Mr Tanda, were you watching these two persons for while, and if so for how long were you watching them?
MR TANDA: I saw them when they were approaching, going over this open veld like place. As I had my weapon on my body when they were coming I took cover with the shacks with the intent to position myself properly so that when they appear nearer to us I can then use my weapon.
MR ARENDSE: When you saw them for the first time, were they walking in a street where you could see them?
MR TANDA: Yes.
MR ARENDSE: And the street itself, was it, did it have lights?
MR TANDA: Yes, there are very long poles at Cross Roads that light up the location. Where they were coming from they have those lights, that's how I could see they were wearing police uniforms, and then I positioned myself between the shacks.
MR ARENDSE: So would it be correct to say that you observed them for a good few minutes before you decided to attack them at or near the footpath which the Chairperson is referring to and to which you referred to?
MR TANDA: Yes, I did look at them for some time but it is not a long time. I could then prepare myself to tell these Africans how they must position themselves in preparation of an attack.
MR ARENDSE: Were you the only one who shot at the two persons involved?
MR TANDA: Yes, myself alone.
MR ARENDSE: Are you sure that none of Simon or Graham shot at them?
MR TANDA: Yes, I'm certain.
ADV SANDI: Did they tell you that Mr Tanda, did they say to you they did not open fire at these two policemen?
MR TANDA: As I say, they gave me firing cover. This means they were keeping watch over my back. It is - the target was in front of me alone, it was I who was in close range with the target.
CHAIRPERSON: Were the identities of these two victims ever revealed to you?
MR TANDA: You mean, what do you mean Sir?
CHAIRPERSON: Their names, where they come from, details of that kind.
MR TANDA: No, I only got to know that they were policemen.
MR ARENDSE: Mr Tanda, is it correct that we also know now that of the two, only one was a policeman and the other one was an employee of Spoornet and that information you got from your legal representatives after they went through the police docket?
MR TANDA: Correct, I got that information from my attorney.
MR ARENDSE: Chairperson, just for the record, it also appears from the photographs that the deceased is still clothed in a Spoornet uniform which is also a blue uniform but which has a distinctive yellow Spoornet marking on the left shoulder.
Mr Tanda, were you arrested at all in connection with this particular incident?
MR TANDA: Correct.
MR ARENDSE: Did you appear in court in connection with the incident?
MR TANDA: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON: How soon after this incident were you arrested?
MR TANDA: I was arrested in 1994, in February 1994 during the attack of Crazy Disco at Newcastle.
MR ARENDSE: Now you appeared in court in connection with this case several times in Mitchells Plain Court, is that correct?
MR TANDA: Correct.
MR ARENDSE: And the case was withdrawn against you?
MR TANDA: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON: What about your two colleagues, were they also arrested?
MR TANDA: No, they were not arrested.
CHAIRPERSON: And when was the case withdrawn?
MR TANDA: I cannot remember the date but it was during 1995.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you in custody throughout that period or where you on bail?
MR TANDA: I had been sentenced for 25 years for the case I had done at Newcastle and the case at Cape Town was a further charge.
CHAIRPERSON: I see. So what you're really saying is whilst that other case involved you, you were making appearances in this matter here and the case was withdrawn. I see. Alright, carry on.
DR TSOTSI: Why was it withdrawn?
MR TANDA: Yes.
DR TSOTSI: Why?
MR TANDA: I cannot answer the question on behalf of the one who acquitted me, who withdrew the case. I'm sorry.
DR TSOTSI: You were not given a reason why the case was withdrawn?
MR TANDA: What I noticed during the whole time of my appearance in court was that those who led the case, the investigators and so on, they did not go to court. I think therefore that that could be the reason why the case was withdrawn.
DR TSOTSI: Maybe Mr Arendse can help us there.
MR ARENDSE: I'm afraid I can't. Presumably because by that time Mr Tanda had already been found guilty and sentenced to 25 years in connection with the Newcastle matter and I take it the investigators didn't think that it's worthwhile pursuing the matter any further.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, proceed please.
MR ARENDSE: Chairperson, just for the record, it also appears from the docket that an inquest was held into the deaths of the two persons involved and the finding was that the inquest court couldn't find on the evidence who the person or person responsible was or were for the deaths of these two persons.
Mr Tanda, how do you - you're now sitting here in 1998, this incident happened towards the end of 1992, you killed human beings, two persons, one a policeman and one an employee of Spoornet. We don't know but presumably they had family, wives, children, dependants, how do you feel about the fact that you killed these two persons?
MR TANDA: Firstly, I want to say, regarding the victim who was walking with the policeman, if his family members or his dependants or wife or whosoever that I'm feeling very remorseful because the clothes he was wearing at the time looked very much like that of a policeman. And to the family and his relatives I want to apologise. The incident happened more because he was walking with a policeman. I want to apologise to his family.
Also to the policeman, although we know that the police during the time of apartheid, their families even though they were working, doing things against their nation, they understand that but I want to apologise to them and want to say that that time was a time of conflict, we were fighting against the government. I think this time is a time of reconciliation and would ask their families to hold hands with us, and this is no more a time of conflict, thank you.
MR ARENDSE: Mr Chairman, with your leave if I could move onto the next incident. The next incident is the Khayelitsha Train Station Attack, with appears from pages 9 through to 23 of the bundle, Mr Chairman.
Were you involved in this attack at all Mr Tanda?
MR TANDA: No.
MR ARENDSE: You are mentioned as part of this attack, did you know about it?
MR TANDA: No, I was not involved.
MR ARENDSE: Did you know who was involved or who were involved?
MR TANDA: You see, I was not part of the planning. Even in the execution of the attack I was not there.
MR ARENDSE: Did you know the persons involved in the attack?
MR TANDA: Yes, I knew Andile as Thabo, and I knew Chicken Licken as Chicken Licken, and I knew Maka Songe as DK. I want to confirm that I know them as APLA members.
MR ARENDSE: The last matter that I want to refer to is the one involving the Guguletu Police Attack at NY108. Chairperson, it is not referred to specifically as one of the incidents before you. If you look at the index on the front page, it is not one of the four incidents but it is mentioned by Mr Tanda in his application on page 32, paragraph 9(a) III. There's reference there to Newcastle, which is the Newcastle Crazy Beat Disco matter, then the Khayelitsha, Zola Budd Road or Drive matter which we've dealt with, and then one sees 108 Road (Guguletu), and then plus Old Cross Road, which is the one which we've also dealt with already.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes?
MR ARENDSE: Just for the record Mr Tanda, I'm just showing you a copy of your application, is that in your handwriting?
MR TANDA: No, I was assisted by Mpahlele.
MR ARENDSE: Is the 108 Road that you see there, and in brackets (Guguletu), is the incident involving the attack on the police at NY108?
MR TANDA: The 108 issue - oh, the 108 is the road from Guguletu and connected the one to the airport through Nyanga Cross Roads and so on.
MR ARENDSE: Now is it correct that this particular attack or operation was carried out in January 1993?
MR TANDA: That's correct.
MR ARENDSE: You were in charge of a unit which comprised Shiceka, the person referred to by you as Chicken Licken and one, DK, and also a person by the name of Scorpion, is that correct?
MR TANDA: The commander of the unit was Chicken Licken. Oh, the one commanding Chicken Licken, DK and Scorpion was Andile Shiceka, the one I knew as Thabo at the time and Scorpion are involved in the operation because at the time I did not want to use people who were based in Cape Town in my unit. So that when any person is wanted by the police that person would not be able to leave Cape Town easily. So it is Andile Shiceka who ran the unit.
MR ARENDSE: But in the operation itself in January 1993, it was only you and Scorpion that were involved in the operation?
MR TANDA: Correct.
CHAIRPERSON: What about the other names that he mentioned, why are they mentioned then?
MR ARENDSE: Perhaps Mr Tanda, you can just repeat why the other names are mentioned to you, Shiceka, Chicken Licken and DK, why were they not involved in the actual operation?
MR TANDA: The reason, I only wanted someone to assist me as part of my manpower, I did not want a unit. You see, the reason why all of these words are mentioned is because, so as to explain where Scorpion was coming from, which unit he was coming from. All of them were my visitors.
CHAIRPERSON: So to say that in January 1993, yourself, Shiceka, Chicken Licken, DK and Scorpion were involved, that's not correct?
MR TANDA: DK, Chicken Licken and Andile were not there, it was myself and Scorpion.
MR ARENDSE: Is it - just to correct that because I probably put it wrongly to you, you were together as a group, you yourself, Shiceka, Chicken Licken and DK and Scorpion, you were together as a group but in terms of carrying out the operation it was only you and Scorpion who were involved in this particular operation?
MR TANDA: Correct.
MR ARENDSE: Now, during this operation you attacked a yellow police van, is that correct, in NY108?
MR TANDA: That is correct.
MR ARENDSE: What time of the day was it?
MR TANDA: It was late in the night. I'm not sure about the time and the date.
MR ARENDSE: Why did you attack the van?
MR TANDA: The intention was to get arms as we knew that police were patrolling with arms.
MR ARENDSE: Did you decide to attack the van?
MR TANDA: Yes. I am the one who took that decision, though I got the mandate from Mzala. As I've already explained I was responsible for APLA soldiers who were coming.
I was there to welcome them and train them so as to be ready for the operation and I had to ensure that they were armed. I would select the target to be disarmed. I later heard that one policeman died, the one who was driving.
MR ARENDSE: You were armed, were you armed with an AK47 or with an R4 rifle?
MR TANDA: I was armed with an R4 rifle and I gave another R4 rifle to Scorpion.
MR ARENDSE: Did both of you shoot at the van?
MR TANDA: No, I'm the only one who shot at the van. He was there to assist me if there was any resistance or shooting back. Because in such an operation it is important not to act at the same time if it's not necessary.
MR ARENDSE: So would it be correct to say that you take sole responsibility for the death of this one policeman during this attack?
MR TANDA: Yes, that is correct. Though the APLA have taken all the responsibility for any actions of APLA, but as the commander on that particular day, on this particular operation I'm taking the responsibility. I am even prepared to meet with the families of the victims.
MR ARENDSE: How do you feel about what happened during this attack, now that you know that one policeman, probably a black policeman, was killed during that attack?
MR TANDA: As I've already said initially, I heard that something happened during apartheid regime but now it's a new era. I am prepared to shake hands with the families of the victims because I know now that we are in the new era, we are no longer fighting.
MR ARENDSE: Were you arrested in connection with this incident?
MR TANDA: Yes.
MR ARENDSE: When were you arrested and where were you when you were arrested?
MR TANDA: I was arrested in 1994 during the attack at Newcastle. That was one of the cases that we used to appear in the Mitchell's Plain Court.
MR ARENDSE: So you also appeared in court in connection with this case on several occasions?
MR TANDA: Yes.
MR ARENDSE: And this case too was withdrawn against you?
MR TANDA: Yes, that is correct.
MR ARENDSE: Do you know why it was withdrawn against you?
MR TANDA: As I was not in a position to explain that before, I can only speculate. During the times of apartheid the lives of the black people didn't have any value. Maybe that was one of the reasons because the police who were involved in that case didn't attend the court.
CHAIRPERSON: Does that mean that even black policemen didn't attach any value to black life?
MR TANDA: The reason for me to say that, in this case of Newcastle ...[intervention]
INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please be requested to speak a little bit louder and in front of the mike. It is very difficult for the interpreters to hear.
MR TANDA: The reason for me to say that, in most cases that affected whites at the time were fully attended easily but those that were affecting the black people, they were not even there to attend. They were just using the black policemen to defend the apartheid regime.
MR ARENDSE: Mr Tanda, just tell us again. At the moment you serve in the SANDF, in the Defence Force?
MR TANDA: That's correct.
MR ARENDSE: How do you - this is a general question, how do you see your life at present, currently? How do you see your life at the moment and where do you see yourself going?
MR TANDA: I'll try and respond to your question although it is a very difficult question.
I look like a child who is just born and I was in prison, involved in other things, and to me it's like a new life. I'm not yet prepared to say whether I'm going forward or backwards but I am prepared. I wish to go on and lead a normal life just like other people.
MR ARENDSE: I just want to comment on this. There is a general criticism from certain members of the public that where amnesty is granted to people like yourself, where you've killed other people, that you are being let loose on the public and that you are likely to commit the same offences again, do you want to comment on that?
MR TANDA: I can say the people of South Africa must know that we were involved in the struggle because I was mentally disturbed but I was there to liberate the nation that was oppressed.
As I'm saying, the times of conflict is gone now and we are living with people. Wherever we live, we live just like other normal people. And secondly, they mustn't think that a revolution wasn't there, we were just pushing a revolution, because even the liberation that the people are talking about today, no matter who can say what, we've got to admit that those were the bullets of APLA, AZAPO and MK that managed to put us where we are today.
We must not forget that because everyone knows that there are members of APLA who are in jails today and the members of Azania and ANC and MK. They are there because they wanted to liberate their nation and therefore they see us as people who are troublesome by trying to liberate our nation.
MR ARENDSE: Then just lastly, did you gain materially, did you gain anything, did you profit, did you make a profit from committing these offences?
MR TANDA: In APLA everyone was a volunteer. We were not benefitting anything after an operation. We were involved in the operations because we loved our nation so much. The only people who benefitted is the nation that was oppressed at the time.
MR ARENDSE: Just like lastly and finally, ...[intervention]
CHAIRPERSON: How many times is that final?
MR ARENDSE: Just this once.
What is your attitude towards white people in this country, who live in this country, your compatriots?
MR TANDA: In politics here in South Africa we never hated white people because of their colour as the other people were deceiving, people saying so. We regard white people as our brothers and sisters, but the problem is the system that they were using, the system that the government was using at the time. We don't have any attitude towards them, any bad attitude.
Even now we are with them, we are working with them in the National Defence Force and there is no problem. Even in places where we live we do visit friends who are staying with whites but we don't hate them because of their colour but it's because of their actions during the apartheid regime.
MR ARENDSE: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ARENDSE
CHAIRPERSON: Is this applicant not involved in the other matters?
MR ARENDSE: I speak under correction, no.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
Have the identities of your victims, the people that you killed, has that ever been made known to you?
MR TANDA: No, I haven't seen them. I only saw them when I met with my legal representative.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't understand that. I've said the identities of the people that you killed. You say you saw them when you met your legal representative? Just clear that up.
MR ARENDSE: I think he's referring to the information which we got out of the police docket but the names and details of the deceased doesn't appear from there, we just discussed it with Mr Tanda.
CHAIRPERSON: Have you any questions to ask?
ADV SANDI: Mr Tanda, just to go back to the Cross Roads Police Attack where you killed those two people, one of whom was a policeman and the other one was an employee of Spoornet. Now you mentioned two names there, that is Graham and Simon. Did you know Graham and Simon before you called them to the house where you were staying at Site C?
MR TANDA: Yes, that is correct.
ADV SANDI: I notice that in your statement you say that you briefed them in full about the operation, what did you tell them?
MR TANDA: I told them that I want to get an order from comrade Power to start involving people in the operations. I chose Graham and Simon and I told them that we would be going to Cross Roads to check the target that we can disarm with the aim of getting more arms.
CHAIRPERSON: Just for the purposes of clearing up the record, you mentioned the word Power, that's the same person as Mzala?
MR TANDA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: I think we should one name throughout these proceedings otherwise the record, if it is read by somebody, might be confusing.
ADV SANDI: Thank you Chairman.
So when you saw these two people you were not really expecting to see them walking in that area, were you?
MR TANDA: As I say the attack didn't take place far from the Cross Road Police Station. I knew that police are patrolling in the community.
ADV SANDI: If you had not come across these two people, what would you have done that evening?
MR TANDA: As I'm talking about the people who were patrolling, I knew that I would get some policemen patrolling in the area. I knew that for sure.
ADV SANDI: Why were the police patrolling the area? Were there any incidents happening in that area?
MR TANDA: If you'd notice that from 1986 up until today, the Cross Roads, time and again there are conflicts among the African people in that area and because of those conflicts the police are there to patrol the areas where the Africans are residing. As in the white areas the police would be there, even if they are there to check on thugs or for whatever reasons but they are there. They are always there patrolling all the time.
ADV SANDI: Thank you Tata.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish to put any questions to the applicant?
MR MAPOMA: No, Chairperson, I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you are excused.
MR ARENDSE: Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You may step down.
WITNESS EXCUSED
