Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Amnesty Committee, comprising of myself as Chairman and on my right, Advocate Chris de Jager SC, and on my left Advocate Leah Gcabashe.

We are met to consider applications for amnesty by Joel Mokoena, Masoba van Rooyen, Abram Maumakwe, Stephen van Rooyen, Gustaff Morupisi, and Butamnuel Selefe.

Are we ready?

MR STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, we're ready to start.

MR KOOPEDI: I confirm that we are ready to start Mr Chairman. As the Commission pleases. The first applicant is sitting before this Commission. The procedure to have him sworn in, should I take care of that?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it appropriate that I should ask him to do that. Will you ask him to stand please.

JOEL BOYKI MARAPISI MOKOENA: (s.u.o.)

EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: We will then proceed, Chairperson.

Would you state your full names for the record?

MR MOKOENA: Joel Boyki Marapisi Mokoena.

MR KOOPEDI: Where is your home?

MR MOKOENA: Kutsaong township.

MR KOOPEDI: Where do you stay now?

MR MOKOENA: Presently I'm serving a sentence at Potchefstroom Correctional Services.

MR KOOPEDI: Mr Chairman, I've just been warned by the technicians here that the applicant has to raise his voice. I will ask him to raise his voice so that he can be properly heard.

You were saying where you live at the moment.

MR MOKOENA: Presently I'm serving a sentence at Potchefstroom Correctional Services.

MR KOOPEDI: When and where were you convicted?

MR MOKOENA: I was convicted on the 19th of June 1992, at the Rand Supreme Court in Johannesburg.

MR KOOPEDI: What was the sentence.

MR MOKOENA: The sentence imposed was 13 years imprisonment.

MR KOOPEDI: For what offence or offences?

MR MOKOENA: For two counts of murder.

MR KOOPEDI: Is it correct that you have applied for amnesty?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, it's correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Is it also correct that the amnesty applied for relates to those two convictions?

MR MOKOENA: That is correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Would you for the record's sake state who the victims were, the people who died?

MR MOKOENA: The victims or the people who died were the members of the criminal gang who were terrorising the community at the time. Their names are KK Nxaku and Boetie Mafino Sedisa.

MR KOOPEDI: Now is it correct, as I've seen in your application for amnesty, that you were a member of the ANC Youth League and the SDU?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, it's correct.

MR KOOPEDI: Whereabout was this, which branch?

MR MOKOENA: At Kutsaong, Carltonville branch.

MR KOOPEDI: Now from your amnesty application you refer to the fact that this was an era where the community was being terrorised by gangsterism. Would you for the purposes of this sitting, explain to this Honourable Commission what were the deeds of the deceased or the gangsterism rather?

MR MOKOENA: Actually it was during the time when our township was run by gangsters and thugerism. Crime was the order of the day, violence, killing, and the day to day killings, to mostly the supporters, the followers and the ANC Youth League members during that time.

The deceased and other members of their gang were a gang that was terrorising the community, ranking from their senseless attacks and the stabbings mostly to the African National Congress Youth League.

MR KOOPEDI: Is there a particular reason, that is if you know, why these people would mostly target members of the ANC Youth League?

MR MOKOENA: Personally I didn't have any idea why their actions were related to the members of the ANC Youth League, but to my concern that time, they were victimising those who were in favour of delivering what was expected from the ANC Youth League or the ANC in general, because mostly the victims of the very same gang were the members, the followers and the community at large.

MR KOOPEDI: Would you explain what this terrorism was, what exactly did they do, and if you are in a position to do so, perhaps mention incidents?

MR MOKOENA: In most cases the gang activists were, the attacks, they were mostly dealing with attacking the people, mostly the ANC Youth League. Like they have done in the past. Starting in the late 1989, when one of the them KUSCO, being Kutsaong Student Congress member was stabbed to death by the very same criminal gang.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the name of the person?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you give us the name of the person?

MR MOKOENA: The name of my fellow comrade who died at that time was Mr Lucas Manxgane Bodibe.

CHAIRPERSON: Hold it.

MR KOOPEDI: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Lucas Manxgane?

MR MOKOENA: Manxgane Bodibe, the surname is Bodibe.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that B-U-T-I-L-E?

MR MOKOENA: B-O-D-I-B-E.

CHAIRPERSON: And when was he attacked?

MR MOKOENA: He was attacked during the holidays of the September month in 1989, during the school holidays of September month in 1989.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR KOOPEDI: As it pleases you Mr Chairman.

Now I want you to get the events leading up to the cause of your conviction, is there anything that was done by the gangsters, or in particular the deceased?

MR MOKOENA: Of course yes. 1991 was of course a year of victimisation if I may say so, to all the members of the ANC Youth League and the entire community in Block 7 where I was staying.

January month of that year, one of the comrades was killed by what is believed to be the third force activities or the hit squad activities.

Then in April month during the long-weekend of Good Friday, the then General Secretary of the ANC Youth League, Mr Cassius Mahuma, was held at gunpoint by the deceased and some other members of the gang. He was searched, intimidated and accused of being one of the comrades.

In August month, the very same year of 1991, the family of Matsaba were on their way to the doctor when the deceased and other members of their criminal gang attacked the car on its driveway to the doctor. The car was smashed by the throwing of stones, the house was smashed by throwing of stones, and as a result of that one of the family members sustained injuries from head to body. Then as the car was on its way to the doctor for the child illness, the young boy passed away the very same night. It was hardly a month when Mr John Mokome was stabbed critically on the 7th of September 1991 ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Koopedi, could he go a little bit slower, it's difficult to write down what he is saying because it's not exactly what has been recorded already. We have got to write it down, so I will appreciate it if he could go a little bit slower.

MR KOOPEDI: As it pleases you Honourable Commissioner. We have noted that, we will try and be a little slower.

MR MOKOENA: Can I start all over again?

CHAIRPERSON: You were saying that Mr John Mokome was attacked in September, was it?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, it was on the night of the 7th of September 1991, when Mr Mokome was attacked by the deceased and other members of their criminal gang, and it is when all of us as the members of the African National Congress Youth League at Block 7, gathered to trace or follow the information that can help us to get or to find those who were responsible for the attack.

In all the attacks I've given to the Commission, all the matters have been reported to the police and no-one was held responsible for whatever attack and whatever damage to property which were persuaded by the gang that the deceased and other gang members ...[intervention]

MR KOOPEDI: Now you're saying at this stage that there were other incidents that had occurred which you believed related to this gang, which were reported to the police but there hasn't been any action?

MR MOKOENA: Of course yes.

MR KOOPEDI: Now for the purpose of our understanding here, and probably for the Honourable Committee Members, would you be able to tell what made you think that the deceased people, or rather their gang was responsible for the number of things you've mentioned? What was the link?

MR MOKOENA: I can say that from the first one in 1991 to Mr Cassius Mahuma who was the then General Secretary of the committee of the ANC Youth League, he came to us as a fellow comrade, we are staying at the very same section, we share almost everything everyday, and he was on his way home from work when it happened to him. The matter was reported the very same day to the police station but no-one was held responsible, every though they were known by both the victim, us and the community. Even the police did know them.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know?

MR MOKOENA: I came to know about the attack on Mr Mahuma the very same day after it happened to him.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm asking you how you knew about the identity of the deceased, that the deceased were amongst those who did the attack?

MR MOKOENA: I can say that I know the deceased and other member of the gang from a long time ago. Some of them I grew up with and we were all at the very same school at the time, during the days of schooling. I know them as residents of Kutsaong and I know them because of their wrong deeds to the community.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, but did you see them killing this person?

MR MOKOENA: The attack on Mr Mahuma, I didn't witness it.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we are concerned to find out what evidence is there that the deceased and not other members of the gang, I'm talking about the deceased, that the deceased were responsible for that attack.

MR MOKOENA: Yes. As Mr Mahuma was saying at the time, the deceased were also present during the attack.

MR KOOPEDI: So your answer is that you were told by Mr Mahuma?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I was not - at the time he was held at gunpoint.

MR KOOPEDI: That is what the Honourable Committee Members have been trying to establish.

MR MOKOENA: Okay.

MR KOOPEDI: Now there are other incidents where your fellow comrades were terrorised. It is I believe in the interest of this Committee to know the link between the deceased people and the acts of terror in the community, would you be able to tell the Committee how you linked the two people? Was it just a mere suspicion or did you have facts, how did you know?

MR MOKOENA: I know the deceased. Like I've said, I did know them about their attack, which to my political awareness and belief that I have that and I believe in that, that since they are known to the police, they've been reported to the police, they are known to the community, it was to my concern that there was something like maybe being involved with the police because most of the time whenever they have committed a crime, a crime has been reported, but yet nothing happened to the perpetrators of the actions.

MR KOOPEDI: Shall we move on to the Lucas Manxgane Bodibe incident. You said he was attacked, is it true he was attacked?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, it is true.

MR KOOPEDI: And what happened to him?

MR MOKOENA: Manxgane was attacked by the most notorious members of the very same gang, including Twala, Big Five, officially the notorious amongst them all, and the late KK Nxaku. He was attacked and hospitalised. He died when he arrived at the hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: You say that Manxgane was attacked by members of the gang, including Twala and Big Five, is that the name of a man, Big Five?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, it's the name of one of the criminal gang members.

CHAIRPERSON: And who else, just Twala and Big Five, or was there somebody else?

MR MOKOENA: And one of the deceased, KK Nxaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on.

MR KOOPEDI: It will be in the interest also of this application to perhaps explain how you know that Manxgane was attacked by these people, did you witness that?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I witnessed that. I was with Manxgane during the day of the attack.

MR KOOPEDI: So you saw him being attacked?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I saw him being attacked by the notorious three of them, criminal gang.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. What happened thereafter, after the attack?

MR MOKOENA: After the attack, as fellow comrades of Manxgane we organised transport to rush Manxgane to the hospital where he died on arrival. After that, as Manxgane was one of the Kutsaong Student Congress members, and myself too as my school-mate and my class-mate, it was a mandate which was made by the student to go and search for those who were responsible for the stabbing to Manxgane.

CHAIRPERSON: Who gave that mandate?

MR MOKOENA: It was a mandate which was reached by the Executive Committee of the Kutsaong Student Congress ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold it.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the mandate?

MR MOKOENA: The mandate was to go and search for those who were responsible for the attack on Mr Manxgane.

MR KOOPEDI: To search and do what? Supposing you searched and found them, then what?

MR MOKOENA: To search and to find those who were responsible and to hand them over to the police as the school was near the police station that time.

MR KOOPEDI: After that mandate was given, what happened?

MR MOKOENA: We did go in search of those who were responsible for the attack on comrade Manxgane, including searching them in their residence or parental homes, but we didn't find any of them.

MR KOOPEDI: And?

MR MOKOENA: And from then on the matter was reported to the police station with identifications of those who were responsible for the attack on Manxgane, but up until now no-one was held responsible for the attack.

MR KOOPEDI: What happened thereafter?

MR MOKOENA: Thereafter they kept on terrorising the community with their actions, ranging from attacking the students, attacking the youth around the township, and mostly victims were the ANC Youth League members.

CHAIRPERSON: Hold it there. You're talking about terrorising the community, I'd like you to tell me about that. What do you mean by: "terrorising the community", why were they terrorising the ordinary members of the community?

MR MOKOENA: In fact to my foresee at that time, their actions were meant to terrorise the community because as they were best known with their actions ranging from pick-pocketing, stabbings, stealing and harassing the students without any reason, stabbing comrades and ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear what you said.

MR MOKOENA: And stabbings to the Youth League members who were mostly the comrades, and they were students that they attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Were any of these members of the gang, were they themselves students at the time?

MR MOKOENA: At the time when they attacked Mr Manxgane, some of them were no longer students. Some of them did leave school in 1985/1986, before Manxgane was attacked.

ADV DE JAGER: You said you witnessed the attack on, who was it, Mr Manxgane, did they tell him why they were attacking him?

MR MOKOENA: In fact the matter that led to the attack on Manxgane was one of their actions being pick-pocketing.

MR KOOPEDI: Please explain, deliberate further.

MR MOKOENA: Okay. Manxgane was attacked after he refused to be searched or to be robbed of his money, that is when the perpetrators stabbed him in a manner that doesn't show any feelings for a comrade like Manxgane.

MR KOOPEDI: But was Manxgane attacked as a member of the Youth League or was he attacked just as an ordinary person who had refused to be pick-pocketed?

MR MOKOENA: I'm really sure and I believe that they did know Manxgane as a comrade, they did know Manxgane as one of the Student Congress members, and I think the attack was because he was a member of the Kutsaong Student Congress.

ADV DE JAGER: You told us that they mostly attacked ANC people or Youth League people, did they also attack other people?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, they did attack mostly other people around the section.

ADV DE JAGER: Not being involved with the ANC?

MR MOKOENA: What I can say is that mostly the victims were the followers and supporters of the ANC Youth League.

ADV DE JAGER: Was that because the majority of the people staying there were supporters of the ANC?

MR MOKOENA: Definitely.

ADV DE JAGER: But they also attacked other people who were not supporters of the ANC?

MR MOKOENA: To those who have, those who they have committed their crimes to, I know of those who were the members, the supporters and the followers of the ANC.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, I understand that. Do you know any people who have been attacked who were not members of the ANC?

MR MOKOENA: Not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: I got the impression from your evidence that this was a gang that just attacked the community including the members of the student group and the ANC Youth League, in other words they were terrorising the community, not necessarily just members of the ANC?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, like I've said, their actions were ranging from pick-pocketing, the stabbings and all that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in other words they were subjecting the entire community to that kind of activity.

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Like a group of gangsters?

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And among their victims were members of the Youth Congress?

MR MOKOENA: Mostly were the members of the Youth Congress.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you've given us just two or three names.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I can give other names if I may do so.

CHAIRPERSON: If you saw them do it. You see, I don't want you to come and tell us what you heard, others who heard it from somebody else.

MR MOKOENA: Yes. As it was known, I think even some of the people who were living there can witness to the fact that they were doing their actions, ranging from pick-pocketing, stabbings and the likes to the community.

ADV DE JAGER: There's also been mention that they raped people.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, some of them, the ones being sentenced to prison for a crime of rape, so raping was one of their objectives if I can say.

ADV DE JAGER: So the police in fact arrested some of them?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, during that time of the crime of rape, it was during the time 1986/'87, that time.

MR KOOPEDI: You have mentioned in your application the name of John Mokome, could you tell the Honourable Committee who he is and what happened to him, if anything?

MR MOKOENA: Mr John Mokome is a friend, he's a comrade and he's been a friend from childhood. We have been to school together and even now we are still on good terms, Mr Mokome, as a friend and a comrade.

MR KOOPEDI: But did anything happen to him, in particular was there any conflict or was he ever attacked by a gang member?

MR MOKOENA: Yes. It was on the night of the 7th of September when he was attacked by the very same criminal gang.

MR KOOPEDI: Do you know why he was attacked?

MR MOKOENA: Pardon?

MR KOOPEDI: Do you know why he was attacked?

MR MOKOENA: Actually I don't know why he was attacked, but what can be the cause of the attack is what happened just before he left us where we were sitting, left us with the reason of going home. He was accompanied by one of the comrades who was residing at that section, Mr Kadi Sekome, who then came back after what happened to him and Mr Mokome.

He just came to inform us or to alert us about the attack on Mr Mokome and that is when we rushed to the scene and we found Mr Mokome lying in a pool of blood with holes, stabbings all over his body.

MR KOOPEDI: Now, to your knowledge, why was he attacked? After being told by this Mr Sekome, why was Mr Mokome attacked?

MR MOKOENA: As to his explanation about the attack, Mr Mokome just told us that KK, Twala, Big Five, Malgas, Moki and other members of the criminal gang just attacked them when they entered ...[intervention]

MS GCABASHE: Sorry, you're going to fast, start again with those names, KK?

MR MOKOENA: KK, Twala, Big Five, Moki, Malgas, and other members of the gang who were with one of the girls, two of the girls who were living at the same section with us, attacked Mr Mokome and Mr Sekome as they entered Block 7 where we were staying.

MR KOOPEDI: Now after the attack on Mr Mokome, did you as members of the Youth League take any action?

MR MOKOENA: Of course we did take action as members of the ANC Youth League.

MR KOOPEDI: What was the action? Perhaps let me ask, after this killing, was there a meeting, did people meet and if so, what was discussed in that meeting?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, we did meet just after the attack, as we were trying to follow the information that can lead us to catch or to find those who were responsible, to find or to catch those who were responsible for the attack.

We did have a meeting as comrades of Block 7 at that time, to can trace or to get any information that can lead us to catch or find the perpetrators.

MR KOOPEDI: So it is in this meeting that it was agreed that you were going to follow-up the assailants, the people who attacked your comrade?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, actually in that meeting so many things had been discussed, including the attack to the them General Secretary ...[indistinct], the attack to the family of Matsaba where a young boy lost his life and one of the family members sustained injuries from head to body.

It was now the third attack at our section to Mr Mokome, on the night of the 7th of September 1991. After we have discussed we got the information from one of the girls who were present during the attack on Mr Mokome. From then on ...[intervention]

MR KOOPEDI: What was this information, the information that you got from this person you call a girl?

MR MOKOENA: Okay, the girl's name is Rebecca Silogilwe. Rebecca Silogilwe gave us the information that she witnessed the attack on Mr Mokome, who was stabbed at random by the deceased and other criminal gang members.

From then on, after we had taken her to show us where we can find them, we started to go in search from where they used to go and enjoy themselves. We go there house to house trying to find any information that can lead us to those who were responsible for the attack.

After failing to find one, we proceeded along again to their parental homes, each and everyone where he was staying. Others I didn't know where they were staying but with the help of Rebecca Silogilwe we managed to find their residential homes, and we did ask from their

parents, we did report about what had happened to Mr Mokome and no-one was their. Even their families didn't know about the whereabouts of the victims, of the gang members and what were they doing when they attacked Mr Mokome.

From then on this girl, Rebecca Silogilwe told us that if they're not around the township, they might have gone to Bekkersdal where they were owing a zozo at the X section at Bekkersdal, Westonaria.

CHAIRPERSON: They were owning a what?

MR MOKOENA: A shack, a zozo.

CHAIRPERSON: A zozo?

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Zozo means a shack?

MR MOKOENA: A shack. After now getting the information from the girl, Rebecca Silogilwe, we didn't take that information for granted because to us and other comrades in the section it was a new thing to us to know that this criminal gang did have a place not around the township and to my concern it counts that maybe that place is a hiding place for them because most of the time after they committed the crime and even though the crime was reported to the police, they are not being fined for their responsibilities.

So all of us as the comrades of Block 7 did go further with this information we received from the girl, Rebecca Silogilwe. As it was late at night on the night of the 7th, we agreed by saying that we will have to meet tomorrow morning to discuss furthermore about the information we received from the girl, Rebecca Silogilwe.

What happened on Sunday the 8th ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: How many of you met?

MR MOKOENA: Almost the whole comrades at Block 7, we were about 30 to 35 at the time.

So on Sunday morning, as agreed last night, we gathered again at the very same venue where we used to gather, it's on a street like this and it's a four-way stop corner under the street light, we gathered there and some of our comrades who were not with us yesterday, yesterday night were there and some of them did know, did gather information that Mr John Mokome was stabbed by the criminal gang who were terrorising the community. As we were now there, my fellow comrade and co-accused, Steven van Rooyen was trying to explain how we came to know about the attack on Mr Mokome. He was trying to explain to those who were not with us yesterday, and he was further explaining our efforts to find those who were responsible on the night of the attack.

As he was giving, following the information we received from Rebecca Silogilwe, that they might have gone to Bekkersdal where they own a shack at the X section, as now the matter was put on discussion, all the comrades who were there were giving their side, their point of view as to the information and their support as to how we will find those who were responsible for the attack.

After an agreement which was reached that we must find a way to go and trace that hiding place of those who were responsible for the attacks which happened at our section, it's when were discussing the route to Bekkersdal, so as there was no other way which you can get to Bekkersdal except the fact that we must find transport to can go there with the transport, I myself and my co-accused and comrade, Gustaf Morupisi agreed to go and negotiate for transport that can take us to where the deceased and other members of the gang can be.

So we went there to the taxi rank and on arrival at the taxi rank we introduced ourselves to the drivers and the those drivers did know, we did know them and they did know us because they were both staying at the very same section where we were staying. We tried to explain everything that had happened the night before about one of our comrades and to arm, and to some attacks which were committed by the very same criminal gang.

They agreed to take us to Bekkersdal only if we can help them by maybe filling up the petrol tanks. We agreed to that, myself and Mr Gustaf Morupisi. From the

taxi rank we moved with two kombi's and after we arrived where the comrades were gathering ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, these taxi drivers, they were not members of ...[indistinct]

MR MOKOENA: Pardon?

ADV DE JAGER: The taxi drivers which you negotiated with, were they also members of the Youth League or weren't they members?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, the other one, Mr Sagosi Selabogo was one of the Kutsaong Student Congress at the time of his schooling days, but at that time he was already a full-time taxi driver. He finished his school and he was a full-time taxi driver.

After arriving at the section under that street light where the comrades were gathering, we came by with two kombis from the taxi rank and now we were starting to donate for petrol. We donated the total amount of R90,00 for those two kombis and then from there we were on our way to Bekkersdal.

I did know Bekkersdal, but I never knew where the X sections were. My fellow comrade, Steven van Rooyen and Hendrik van Rooyen have a relative at Bekkersdal, so Steven van Rooyen did have full knowledge of the section of the X's.

As we were on our route to Bekkersdal, from those comrades, those 30 to 35 total, only 17 of us went to Bekkersdal in those two kombis.

CHAIRPERSON: How many?

MR MOKOENA: 17.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR KOOPEDI: Now when you left for Bekkersdal, 17 as you were, what was your mission, what were you going to do there? Could you explain this to the Honourable Committee?

MR MOKOENA: As concluded in the gathering, the mission to Bekkersdal was to find the perpetrators as to the information we received from the girl, Rebecca Silogilwe. The mission was to go and find the perpetrators of the attack on Mr Mokome, to stand their responsibility and to hand them over to the police if they did agree to what they had done to Mr Mokome ...[intervention]

MR KOOPEDI: There's something I missed. You said something about responsible, one of the things was to then hand them over to the police and what else, what did you want from them? What did you want to do with them?

MR MOKOENA: In fact we wanted to catch the perpetrators since all their actions which they committed were reported to the police but no further actions were taken against what they were busy doing to the community.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. After catching them, supposing you were to catch them, what was the intention, what were you to do? Following from what was said in the meeting, what were you to do?

MR MOKOENA: In fact it was to go and, was to catch them and to hand them over to the family of Mr Mokome and to call the police, because something like to report it was no a thing that we were not believing, that whenever you report them to the police they will be arrested.

There was something like a friendship link between them and the police, because they were known to the police but whenever they've committed a crime they were never arrested. I want to ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: After they committed the previous crimes you went out in search of them.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, we did.

ADV DE JAGER: You went to their houses, to their parental houses, you couldn't find them, so they've disappeared ...[inaudible]

MR MOKOENA: ...[inaudible] the township, they might have gone to Bekkersdal.

ADV DE JAGER: And so you were lucky to find this girl and she knew where they were?

MR MOKOENA: Yes. In fact we didn't travel to Bekkersdal with the girl, she just gave us the information on the night of the attack.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes. How far is Bekkersdal from Kutsaong?

MR MOKOENA: I can't predict the kilometres, but it's not so far away, it's not so far, it's just the next town from Carltonville to Bekkersdal.

ADV DE JAGER: But you collected R90,00 for petrol for the two kombis?

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: R45,00 each?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, they did fill up the tanks with that R90,00, both kombis were filled up by that R90,00.

ADV DE JAGER: So was it only the next town, next to Kutsaong?

MR MOKOENA: No, just from here in Carltonville. Bekkersdal, it's a township of Westonaria. I don't know if ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Of Westonaria?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, in Westonaria.

MR KOOPEDI: At the time when I interrupted you, you were still telling the Honourable Committee here that about 17 of you then got into the kombis to Bekkersdal, please go on from there.

MR MOKOENA: Yes. As we were on our way to Bekkersdal, we get to Bekkersdal and on our arrival at Bekkersdal we started at Mandela's Squatter Camp, it's a section of shacks there, where we did know some of our comrades were staying there.

We have gone to Mr White Mpesheni's shack, who was acting as a Chairman of the African National Congress Youth League at Bekkersdal. We did find Mr Mpesheni who was also surprised to see us in the early hours of the morning of the 8th of September. We tried and we explained what brings us to Bekkersdal in the early hours of the morning, and he himself asked whether can he give us, or are we going to need anything that can help us or lead to that information given by Rebecca Silogilwe on the night of the attack.

So now as comrade Steven van Rooyen had a full knowledge of that section of the X, we left Mr Bazuka Mpesheni with, after telling that we have the information of the X section ...[intervention]

MS GCABASHE: Can I ask you, the reason for going to Mr Mpesheni, what was it? Why did you decide to start there?

MR MOKOENA: In fact Mr Mpesheni's shack was just on a driveway when we entered Bekkersdal, so as a comrade we just entered there to give him what brings us, to give him the information what brings us to Bekkersdal in the early hours of the morning.

After leaving Mr Mpesheni's shack we proceeded along the main road straight to Up-town. There is a section they call Up-town, at Bekkersdal. It is where the van Rooyens have a relative there. So arriving there both kombis parked outside the yard and then myself, the van Rooyen brothers, we get into the house. The family members were there. Even myself I was a familiar friend there, they did know me. Steven van Rooyen was the one who tried to explain to the house what brings us to Bekkersdal in the early hours of the morning.

From then on we divided ourselves into two groups as there were comrades who did know the section of the X's just like Steven van Rooyen as my co-accused. From the yard, from the relative's family of Mr van Rooyen the other comrades travelled along to go and start searching where the X sections end.

So we together with comrade Steven van Rooyen were going to start at the Up-front where the X sections were, where the X sections start. We proceeded along the houses up until the first street of the X sections. We go on that way asking from the residents, trying to give them their names, the names of the criminal gang members, their nicknames, trying to search whether they have any knowledge of the people we are looking for. We found that no-one had any knowledge of where they can be.

As we entered the second street of the X sections of the shacks, proceeding that way, asking from one person to anther about maybe knowing, maybe if they did know or if they did see some of the people, but there was nothing, there was no-one who did know about them.

As we were still proceeding that way, it was likely that the perpetrators or the gang members did realise us from far away because as we were proceeding to our surprise we found that there was a group of people trying to flee, starting to flee from the last street of the section and we were moving in the second street of the X sections.

As they spread up by jumping the fences and by going out of that shack, we tried to locate that shack by following those who were running away from that shack. The two deceased, as the last street of that shack was facing the open veld leading to the Cook Two Mine(?) - as they say, there is a camp of a mine far away from where the zozos, from the last street of the X section, I together with my fellow comrades, Steve and Hendrik, we followed the deceased as they were running from the yard to the open veld of the, to the open veld where the whole thing happened after we reached them to that spot of the mine campers.

We followed them from their shack. We tried - as comrade Steve was moving in front of me, we tried to talk to them to stop, we are not fighting with them but they proceeded. As the mission was to go and catch them or to catch them to find them, we followed them up until the campers of the mine.

There was a fence which was covering the premises of the mine. They did jump that fence into the campus of the mine. We followed them the very same way and we get ...[indistinct], there was a main gate far from where they have jumped that fence, we get along with that gate and now there was no way for them to can run away again because now we were in the premises of the mine and there was nowhere where they could go.

As they took - as they stand, I took it to mind that maybe they give up or they have no way now to can go. Comrade Steve as he was in the forefront, he was the one who was trying to talk to Mr KK Nxaku while I was still on my way to where Steve was trying to talk with them.

As Steve was trying to get closer to Mr KK Nxaku, Mr KK Nxaku drew the gun and I screamed to Steve: "Steve, be alert, the guy is having a gun in his hand". He tried to shoot but the gun refused to shoot, and it is when we pick up the stones and we throw them with the stones. He tried to run away, he tried to shoot again but the gun never, no shot went off from the gun and we managed to grab him now.

Steve managed to hit him with a brick on the head, and as he fell down our aim was to grab him. The gun was far away from where he fell down. I kicked the gun as he was trying to grab the gun again. I kicked it to that grass and it's when we started to kick him, when he was struggling to stand up. He managed again to stand up and he pulled out the jungle knife and it was when we started to hit him with the stones. We hit him with the stones and he tried to fight back that jungle knife. We hit where - as it was not in the campus of the mine, it's was like a dump inside there, there were iron bars there, zincs and all that, so Steve hit him with an iron bar on the head and as he fell down I managed to take his jungle knife and it's when we started to stab him. I found that Mr Abram Maumakwe was already there when it happened, and it's when we hit him and we stabbed him, as Steve was hitting him with an iron bar.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now this is one of the deceased persons, do you know what happened to the other?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, they were not too far from each other when they ran away, so as to the forefront it was Steven van Rooyen and myself and Hendrik van Rooyen. At the time Steve tried to talk to KK Nxaku, Hendrik van Rooyen was trying to talk to Boetie Sedisa. I never had the full insight to what happened to Mr Sedisa but I finally came to see that it was ...[indistinct] that Mr van Rooyen and Mr Gustaff Morupisi ...[indistinct], the late comrade Tebogo, to attack Mr Sedisa.

CHAIRPERSON: How was he attacked?

MR MOKOENA: Like I've said, that during the time Mr van Rooyen pleads for a peace-talk with Mr Sedisa, I lost touch that time when he tried to talk to him because now I was near Mr KK Nxaku together with comrade Steven van Rooyen, so what happened there totally I don't have any knowledge but I have seen him after he was stabbed.

MS GCABASHE: Did his attack take place in the same mining camp, as you call it, you know at that dump? Was it for both of them at the same place?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, they were there at the same camp and they were not far from each other, it was just a distance like this one, from here, from this table to that table there, the one there at the back.

MS GCABASHE: Now you earlier told us you had divided into two groups and you were in one group with Steven.

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

MS GCABASHE: Was Hendrik with the other group?

MR MOKOENA: Hendrik was with us to the same group.

MS GCABASHE: So is it just the one group that essentially attacked both, the second group that had started at the end of the X section was not involved in this attack?

MR MOKOENA: They were not involved, they came after we have already attacked the deceased. During the time when that attack was still taking place they were still coming from behind. And those who have gone to start at the end of the X sections with a kombi, the kombi did get into the open veld but it was blocked by that fence that divided the township and the mine campers.

MS GCABASHE: And then how many of you, in terms of numbers, were in this group that attacked both gang members?

MR MOKOENA: Actually we were eleven but the six of us did reach the deceased before the other five came by.

CHAIRPERSON: And how were you armed, you and your friends?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, of course we were armed, starting from where we were, from our township, specifically myself I had a knife when to went to Bekkersdal.

CHAIRPERSON: Did anybody have a firearm?

MR MOKOENA: No, we didn't have the firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the actual attack on the second deceased, who was responsible for that?

MR MOKOENA: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: The attack on the second deceased, the second person, who was involved in that attack?

MR MOKOENA: After a long fighting with Mr KK Nxaku whom we defeated until he never fought back, when I raised my head I found that Mr Hendrik van Rooyen, the late comrade Tebogo and Mr Gustaff Morupisi were there where Mr Sedisa was lying.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take the short adjournment at this stage and resume in fifteen minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

JOEL MARAPISI MOKOENA: (s.u.o.)

MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Now before we had this short tea adjournment, you were still explaining how the two people died and especially the one deceased named KK. That appears to be where you were involved. Now, I would want to know as to how did it happen that after your mandate was to go and arrest or to go and catch, as you said, these people, why were they then assaulted or killed? Why were you then killing them?

MR MOKOENA: In fact I may say that it was a self-defence matter at that time but from the first instance as the mission and the agreement was concluded by the comrades, the mission was to go and catch the perpetrators. As a member of the ANC at the time and my fellow comrades, we did this as comrades. It was not something we were doing only for us, it was a thing that we agreed upon, that as members of the ANC Youth League we came to the decision that we are going to trace the perpetrators as the information we received on the night of the attack.

I would say that it was not meant to attack the perpetrators in the first place but the assaults and the attack took place after Mr KK Nxaku drew a gun. We thought we can get the gun off his hand. Now as he pulled out the knife it just happened that it's now a fight, it was no longer in the ...[indistinct] of now, having to can get him in our hands because he was having a knife at that time.

MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now in your application you refer to two gentlemen, one Nzeku and Ramagotedi and this is under instruction where you were asked if there were any orders given. Now, did these two gentlemen give any orders inasfar as this operation was concerned, did they give you any orders?

MR MOKOENA: No, they didn't give us the orders.

MR KOOPEDI: Why did you mention them, why are you referring to them in your application?

MR MOKOENA: In fact like I've stated in my application form, I was referring to the leadership part in fact because Mr Ramagotedi was in the Youth League Leadership and Mr Nzeku was Secretary General of the ANC Youth League.

Both Mr Nzeku and Mr Ramagotedi did know about the then tense situation in our area, they did know about the gang activities which were troubling the community at that time and of course they did know that the Youth League or the entire youth in our area were mostly the victims of the then situation of the day to day killings, attacks and the likes.

MR KOOPEDI: Before we sum up, is there anything that you want to say to this Committee, that we have not spoken about?

MR MOKOENA: In fact what I wanted to say that I want to thank first the Commission for the entire time they have given to me to have to can come up here and give the side of the story because ever since it happened seven years ago, I never had the chance like this one to can tell the whole truth of what had happened on the 8th of September 1991.

So as a member of the ANC Youth League and as a member of the ANC, I know the whole thing about this Commission since it was to established, and now I thank the Commission and the Commissioner for giving me this opportunity to reveal what had happened during that day of the 8th of September 1991.

MR KOOPEDI: Is that all?

MR MOKOENA: Furthermore I want to say that since the Commission's objective is to give, to hear all the truth about the past atrocities, the atrocities of the past which were pressurised by the past regime, I myself say that today as I'm sitting here before the Commissioners, what I'm giving now is only the truth about what happened during that day, about the deceased and now I'm asking from the deceased's family, the entire community Kutsaong, my family too and all those who have, whom I have caused a great pain because of my actions to all what had happened on the day of the 8th of September.

MR KOOPEDI: Mr Chairman, that will be the case for the applicant for now.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: What standard of education have you had?

MR MOKOENA: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: What standard of education have you had?

MR MOKOENA: Standard 10.

CHAIRPERSON: Where?

MR MOKOENA: Actually when I left school I was doing standard nine but I've now matriculated during my stay at prison.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time of this occurrence, were you still a student?

MR MOKOENA: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: At the time of the occurrence, were you still a student?

MR MOKOENA: No, I was employed.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you doing?

MR MOKOENA: What?

CHAIRPERSON: What were you doing?

MR MOKOENA: I was employed at Golden West Engineering as a profile cutter operator.

CHAIRPERSON: You have mentioned the ANC Youth League, you mentioned the Kutsaong Youth Congress, is there any difference between these two bodies or are they the same?

MR MOKOENA: Actually I'll explain it this way: during the formation of Kutsaong Student Congress which was aligned with Kutsaong Youth Congress, KYCO in abbreviation. KYCO and KUSCO were the two bodies which gathered the entire youth of Kutsaong. KUSCO, as it was with the ideals of the Congress of South African Students, came after the unbanning of the organisations that it should be COSAS. And of course, KUSCO and KYCO are now the present ANC Youth League at Kutsaong. Mostly the members are still the ones from Kutsaong Student Congress and Kutsaong Youth Congress.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, are there any questions you wish to put to this applicant?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR STEENKAMP: Yes, Mr Chairman, if you would allow me a few questions.

Mr Mokoena, on your own version you have indicated that on the day of the incident the first deceased and the second deceased were basically trapped, they couldn't go anywhere, there were in the mine premises and they couldn't escape, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: Of course it was correct.

MR STEENKAMP: And on your own version, after, it seems to me that after you had disarmed the first deceased you then embarked on stabbing the deceased, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: The stabbing of the deceased came after we disarmed him first of the gun and he drew out a knife, a jungle knife. That time it was during the course of what I can call, what I can describe as a fiction(?) fight between us and Mr KK Nxaku.

MR STEENKAMP: But please help me if I'm wrong, I understood your evidence to be that at the time when the deceased was killed he was not armed at all, you took the knife from him, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: As we were fighting I fought to get the knife out of his hand and then as he was trying to fight back I finally stabbed him.

MR STEENKAMP: Were you the only person that was stabbing the deceased or were there other people involved as well?

MR MOKOENA: During the stabbings I was with Mr Abram Maumakwe whilst Mr Steven van Rooyen was still hitting the deceased with an iron bar.

ADV DE JAGER: Just repeat the second name please, Mr Abram?

MR MOKOENA: Abram Maumakwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I hear you correctly to say that Abram Maumakwe struck the deceased with an iron bar?

MR MOKOENA: During the stabbings I was with Mr Abram Maumakwe while comrade Steven van Rooyen was still hitting the deceased with an iron bar.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

ADV DE JAGER: Sorry, it's not quite clear to me, you say during the stabbing you were with Abram, did Abram also stab?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, Abram came at the time I started to stab Mr KK Nxaku. As he was still trying to fight back Abram was already there and we stabbed him.

ADV DE JAGER: What did Abram do?

MR MOKOENA: He did stab Mr KK Nxaku too.

ADV DE JAGER: Where did he get a knife?

MR MOKOENA: I don't know but as to my realisation he was armed with a knife.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, do carry on.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Sir, coming back to your political motivation, do you know if any of the deceased were ever members of any political organisation?

MR MOKOENA: From the two deceased I never have any knowledge of them being members of political organisations.

MR STEENKAMP: So they were not political enemies or had a contrary view at all, to your knowledge now, correct?

MR MOKOENA: Actually to my knowledge I won't say they were the enemy but what I can say is, they were the obstacles towards what was the aim of the entire youth of the township at that time.

MR STEENKAMP: So it seems to me, and please help me if I'm wrong, it seems to me that the only motive for this killing was pure revenge, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: I don't think so and I won't say that it was a revenge as I have never avenged or revenged in such a manner.

MR STEENKAMP: I'm sorry but I don't understand. What other motive did you have at that stage and accept - what was your motive then at that stage for killing the deceased?

MR MOKOENA: As concluded during the meeting, the motive was to go and catch the perpetrators and hand them over to the police since then all what they had done to the community and to the comrades was reported to the police but no further steps or maybe actions were taken against the perpetrators, thus giving us a doubt that maybe there was a link between the police and the criminal gang.

MR STEENKAMP: When you planned these actions did you discuss or consult this incident or the position of the two deceased at the stage with any of the ANC Youth League chairpersons or with any of the ANC leadership in the township?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, actually before leaving for Bekkersdal, like I have, like my co-accused, Mr Hendrik van Rooyen who was the Secretary Organiser and membership office of the ANC Youth League Interim Committee that time, according to him he did report the attack on Mr Mokome and our way forward to Bekkersdal with the aim to catch the perpetrators as it was concluded.

MR STEENKAMP: Just to pick up on your motive again, you see the difficulty I have of your evidence, dealing with your motive, is that both in the court a quo when you were convicted as in both the statements as contained the bundles of Mr Nzeku - Mr Chairman, page 70 to page 73 of the bundle, and Mr Jeremiah Ramagotedi, in both of those statements they state very clearly that your actions were purely criminal and there was no political content of motive whatsoever for your actions.

What is your reaction to that?

MR MOKOENA: I won't agree with what they're saying. I won't agree with what they're saying because my actions and my fellow comrade's actions came as we were the members of the ANC Youth League in the township.

MR STEENKAMP: Can you maybe just briefly, very briefly, explain to me what do you understand by political motive?

MR MOKOENA: Briefly what I can say is that to my concern, to my awareness about the political motive, it is clear that there must have been a reason aligned with political or maybe being in the interest of the political organisation or maybe whatever it can be, but on the side of the politics.

MR STEENKAMP: Just to follow on that, can you explain to me or the Committee how did the killing of the deceased further your political aims as you saw it?

MR MOKOENA: Sorry?

MR STEENKAMP: How could the killing of the deceased further your political aim at that stage? How did they benefit your political views at the stage when they were killed?

MR MOKOENA: In fact, as a Youth League member at that time and during the then tense situation around the township, the ...[indistinct] of the entire youth was to combat on all sorts of crime and to defend the community wherever it is needed.

CHAIRPERSON: All that really means is that you're fighting against criminals and crime, that's the emphasis. Criminals were harassing the community, terrorising the students, these gangsters.

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And this is uppermost in your mind. My question really is, how is that connected with politics?

MR MOKOENA: Totally it was disturbing, the process of finally getting the formal launching of the ANC Youth League and to attend to the aims and objectives of the Youth League.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why, if those who were apposing you had a political organisation of their own which opposed you politically then you were political rivals, do you understand?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: There hasn't been a word that has been uttered by you or in the papers to suggest that as far as the gangsters were concerned, that there was any politics at all in what they did. Do I make myself clear?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I think that is the question that Mr Steenkamp is really trying to ...[intervention]

MR MOKOENA: Can you repeat the question again Mr Strydom?

MR STEENKAMP: I'll try to make it as easy as possible for you to understand. The question is this: it seems to me that there was basically a gang war in Kutsaong, is that correct, at the time of the killing?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, there were rival gangsters fighting each other.

MR STEENKAMP: And there was revenge attacks between the different gangs on each other, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, to those who were known to the township that time.

MR STEENKAMP: And on your own evidence, the killing of both the deceased was done because of the killing of the person you mentioned, I think you said, Mr - can you just help me with that name, how do you pronounce that name, the deceased? The deceased that was killed according by both the deceased?

MR MOKOENA: Manxgane.

MR STEENKAMP: Manxgane.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, it was in 1989 that time.

MR STEENKAMP: Am I right in saying that was the primary reason why both these deceased were killed by yourself?

MR MOKOENA: I won't agree with that because it happened in 1989 and they were still around after the matter was left in the hands of the police, so if it was meant to be revenge we would have revenged it if it was to be, but I won't say the aim was to revenge.

MR STEENKAMP: Am I right in saying that you never received any mandate, directly or indirectly, from any ANC leader or organiser or member of the Youth League who was in charge of the youth at that stage, to kill anybody, am I right in saying that?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, you're right, we never received any mandate from anyone, but now since then we were the Youth League members and we were with one of the executive members within ourselves, of which whom I won't say he gave the mandate but it was a mandate from all the comrades who were gathered there during that meeting.

MR STEENKAMP: Maybe my ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get this clear. You see, when you decide among yourselves, a group of you, you might call that a mandate.

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, not mandate but instructions. Nobody who was your senior in the ANC or in the Youth League gave you instructions to do what you did, that is the question isn't it?

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was a mandate in the sense that it was a common decision taken by you among yourselves.

MR MOKOENA: Of course yes.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

I'm informed Sir, that there was basically two big gangs operating in Kutsaong, the one being called the Kadafis and the other one being called the Zim Zims, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, it's correct.

MR STEENKAMP: And were you a member of any of these gangs?

MR MOKOENA: Not at all, I was a member of the ANC Youth League.

MR STEENKAMP: And the deceased, were they members of any of these gangs?

MR MOKOENA: I don't have any knowledge. They were a gang which were known mostly by their activities ranging from pick-pocketing.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they have a name, were they known by any name?

MR MOKOENA: Just as to myself I took them as criminal gang.

MR STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STEENKAMP

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Nzeku states that the members who applied for amnesty - I refer to page 70, paragraph 3 of his affidavit, Mr Mokoena, Maumakwe, van Rooyen and Morupisi used to be members of the ANC Youth League but at the time of the commission of the offence were no longer members but belonged to a break-away group, is that correct or isn't it correct?

MR MOKOENA: It's not correct, I was still a member of the ANC at the time of that attack.

ADV DE JAGER: At that stage he was the General Secretary of the ANC, for Carltonville.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, Mr Nzeku was the General Secretary.

ADV DE JAGER: Wouldn't he know or could ascertain who were members at the time? Was there a member list or something?

MR MOKOENA: I don't know how to answer to that because now Mr Nzeku was in the above leadership, we did have the then General Secretary of the Youth League of which is Mr Cassius Mahuma.

CHAIRPERSON: Just spell that name again.

MR MOKOENA: Cassius: C-A-S-S-I-U-S, surname: Mahuma

M-A-H-U-M-A.

CHAIRPERSON: You say he was the General Secretary of the ANC Youth League?

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And where was he?

MR MOKOENA: Where was he?

CHAIRPERSON: Where was his office or where did he work from as General Secretary of the ANC Youth League?

MR MOKOENA: He was within the Executive Committee, they didn't have an office at the time but he was working alongside with my co-accused, who was the then Secretary Organiser of the ANC Youth League.

ADV DE JAGER: After you stabbed the deceased and after he was killed, did you come back and report to your organisation what has happened?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, of course. What we did on Monday the 9th of September, because on Sunday, the day of the attack, it was said that the comrades secretary was not present as the then ...[indistinct] committee of the Youth League had attended a West Rand general meeting of the ANC Youth League at Krugersdorp, so on Monday the matter did reach the entire committee and Mr Nzeku too who was at the time having an office at National Union of Mine Workers offices.

I did go there by myself, as the comrades did contact him before. I got there - as I was employed, after work I did go to the office the National Union of Mine Workers.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you speak to Mr Nzeku?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, of course I did.

ADV DE JAGER: Now he says in his affidavit further in paragraph 5

"I would attribute their action in killing the two deceased as a criminal act of revenge and without any political motivation of which I am aware of"

Did you tell him why you killed the deceased?

MR MOKOENA: Just as I'm trying to give the full truth to the Commission, I explained it that way and each and every one of the members involved in the Executive Committee ...[inaudible] deceased on the 8th of September.

ADV DE JAGER: And after you'd been arrested and at your trial, did you ask for legal assistance from the ANC?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, as to what has been reported, actually the then General Secretary, Mr Cassius Mahuma before we stood trial at the Supreme Court, but after we had been arrested by the Westonaria Murder and Robbery Unit, we pleaded for a bail application but we were denied bail by the court until such time that we found the attorneys from Janse van Rensburg, Janse van Rensburg attorneys from Westonaria, with the help of our families.

We then appealed to the Youth League to help us since we were not in a position to be able to afford the costs of the advocates to stand trial in the Supreme Court. They did by him, the then Secretary General at the time, who gave us the application form of the Legal Aid for legal representation. We did fill in the applications but nothing came to our side ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, I'm not asking about Legal Aid, I'm asking whether you've asked the ANC to assist you financially in your defence, because as members of the ANC you acted, or of the Youth League, you acted in searching or doing something about the deceased.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, we did ask for help, more especially the help to get the proper representation before court. According to Mr Secretary, the only way they could have helped us was for them to get us the advocates to stand trial with us at the Supreme Court and in that way they supplied us with the application forms of the legal aid.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes. Do you know Mr Jeremiah Ramagotedi?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I know comrade Ramagotedi.

ADV DE JAGER: He was the Secretary of the Youth League at that stage, in September 1991, of ANSIL.

MR MOKOENA: I know Mr Ramagotedi as one of the Executive Committee members but the guy whom I know as the Secretary was Mr Cassius Mahuma.

ADV DE JAGER: Now he's also made an affidavit, I think you must be aware of it, it appears on page 72 of the papers, and in paragraph 6 and 7 he says

"As far as my knowledge goes, the murders they committed were not politically motivated"

And then in paragraph 7:

"The ANC also refused to arrange and pay for their defence"

Did they tell you why they refused to arrange and pay for your defence?

MR MOKOENA: Actually I won't say they refused because if they refused they would not have given us the application forms of the Legal Aid. We tried to persuade that this matter be given the proper representation but only what they could have done that time, they gave us the application forms of the Legal Aid.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you at any time break away and belong to another group, at the time of this trouble?

MR MOKOENA: Not at all, I was still a member and I'm still willing to be a member for my entire life, of the ANC Youth League and after then of the ANC.

MS GCABASHE: Can you just help me understand the way the ANC Youth League functioned as a structure, how it related to the ANC, the mother body, as you understood it?

MR MOKOENA: Okay what I can say is that the youth, as during the time of the struggle had played a major role in trying to organise and educate each other amongst any other thing that can maybe destroy the aims of reaching what the broad aim of the ANC as the mother body. To my point of view, the ANC Youth League played the major role in recruiting and mobilising the entire youth with the aims and the ideals of the ANC.

MS GCABASHE: To what extent were you then accountable to the mother body, the ANC, for the things you decided to do? What did the mother body expect from you?

MR MOKOENA: Actually during that time, during the then situation of the offences, the Youth League was trying its level best to establish or to implement a peace settlement amongst those who were killing each other during the time, and to finally have a formally launched ANC Youth League branch at Kutsaong.

MS GCABASHE: Yes, but what I really want to know is, were you operating fairly independently of the ANC itself, in terms of the way you conducted yourselves? You know you had the ANC Youth League, you had the Women's League, then you had the mother body, so I'm just trying to understand how you related to the mother body, nevermind what the things you actually did but how did you have to answer to them for the things you were doing?

CHAIRPERSON: Organisationally.

MR MOKOENA: In fact as to the organise was it was that time, we were acting, there was a closed communication link between ourselves as the Youth League and the mother body of the ANC, particularly moreover the fact that at the time we were the youth and our township was reigned by violence and all sorts of those things, so we as the Youth League at that time were there to upgrade or maybe maintain amongst other things, peace amongst the entire youth of Kutsaong and to forecast all the long and ongoing struggle of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that, there is no difficulty in understanding that. I think my colleague here wants to know how you were connected organisationally, did the Youth League function on its own, independent of the ANC? You told us that you were in close contact, I can understand close contact but organisationally was there anything, any structures that met and took decisions jointly with the ANC?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, the ANC did have the mother body and the Youth League too as an Executive Committee, but what we did as members that time, I'm sure that the mother body too did understand what was happening between the ANC Youth League and the mother body. So we were not there by ourselves, the mother body too was there. So anything we did that time as members of the Youth League, the mother body too had a full knowledge of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MS GCABASHE: Now in the context of that, why is it that you had two secretary generals? You had Jeremiah Ramagotedi and you have Mahuma, you knew of Mahuma.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I knew of Mahuma.

MS GCABASHE: Now explain having the two secretary generals for the one ANC Youth League, just to help me understand how that worked.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, like I've said, that comrade Oupa Ramagotedi, I knew him as one of the interim Executive Committee, even though I did not know what his portfolio was but Mr Cassius Mahuma was the General Secretary. If then he was not the General Secretary, then he could have been the Minute Secretary because most of that time during the meetings, Mr Mahuma was the one who was drafting the minutes in the meeting.

MS GCABASHE: So in terms of membership lists, it's Makuma who would know that you were active members of the ANC Youth League?

MR MOKOENA: Actually the entire committee did know. Right now, Mr Hendrik van Rooyen who is my co-accused was serving within the Interim Committee as a Secretary Organiser and a membership officer.

MS GCABASHE: Okay. Now one last aspect on this. Your own position, did you hold a particular position, even if it's in Block 7. in your area?

MR MOKOENA: Not just in the area of Block 7 but around the township.

MS GCABASHE: What was your position?

MR MOKOENA: I was acting as a self-defence unit member.

MS GCABASHE: But you were not here of the local branch or of the Street Committee or anything like that, you didn't have an official position within the organisation?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, as the SDU structure was not constituently launched that time.

MS GCABASHE: Now you have told us about three different incidents, starting from 1989 up to the time that these particular deceased were killed by you. Now before the 7th of September 1991, what discussions had you held with the ANC mother body about the problems you were experiencing in Block 7? Had you strategised, had you discussed, had you found a plan of action, can you explain that to me?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, of course I can. Actually, since the then situation was a violent one, it was not just from the ANC Youth League but from the entire community, the supporters and the followers of the ANC, that there was a need that the community

should be protected and now that they Youth League members of the Youth League, the entire Youth League around the township were totally disturbed by what was going on as violence was the order of the day, breaking and stopping the day to day schooling, hurting and destroying the minds of those who were with the ideals of the ANC at the time.

MS GCABASHE: But did you discuss a plan of action with the ANC leadership: "This is what we are going to as the ANC in Kutsaong", did you do that?

MR MOKOENA: Yes, in fact, what was planned that time, what was about to be a plan which was proposed by the ANC Youth League, was first to establish or to reach a peace settlement as violence was the order of the day and finally to have a formally launched ANC Youth League branch around the township.

MS GCABASHE: A slightly different aspect, that of the political affiliation of these gangs, these gangsters, that includes the deceased, KK and Sedisa, now you have said that you don't know of their political affiliation, is that correct?

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

MS GCABASHE: But you have also talked about police assistance being given to these particular gangs, you specifically talk about the police not following up on reports that were made to them.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, on crimes that were reported to them.

MS GCABASHE: Yes. Now were there other activities that the police were involved in, apart from not following up the criminal acts that you reported, were there other ways in which the police assisted these gangs?

MR MOKOENA: Actually from the gang the one where the two deceased were affiliated, I won't say much except the fact that to our concern that time, it was clear that there was a link if not a relationship with the police officers that time.

MS GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR KOOPEDI: Nothing in re-examination, thank you.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED