Amnesty Hearings

CHAIRPERSON: Good Morning everybody. When we adjourned yesterday Mr Visser was about to call his next applicant.

MR VISSER: Morning, Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee. Yes Chairperson, I call Maj Salmon Johannes Gerhardus du Preez, who is ready to give his evidence. He prefers to give it in Afrikaans and he has no objection to taking the prescribed oath.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: (sworn states)

MR VISSER: Mr Chairperson, before you has been placed a summary of his evidence which we submit should be marked Exhibit C. This was done yesterday and I will draw your attention to some mistakes that have been made in it, but we'll deal with it when we come to it. If I may then lead the witness, Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr du Preez, you have previously testified ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, it's just been drawn to my attention, we were given a map yesterday. I think at this stage, seeing we've marked this one C, we'll mark the map Exhibit D. Have you all got a copy of that map? Thank you. Sorry, Mr Visser, you may proceed.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, yes, that is Exhibit D. Mr Chairman, we will attempt to obtain a map with greater detail about the particular area which is relevant here, which is Phoenix/Bambayi/kwaMashu and if we do obtain such a map, we'll let you have that immediately.

Mr du Preez, you have testified previously before other Amnesty Committees as it is mentioned in Exhibit C?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And you have also completed an application for amnesty which is bound into the Khubeka bundle, that would be bundle 1?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Pages 30 to 41, where the incident is dealt with by you from page 31 to 34?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Do you confirm your previous evidence as well as the incorporation of your evidence, into your evidence of Exhibit A, which is now serving before the Committee and you request that this be taken into consideration when your application is considered?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Will you please turn to page 2 of Exhibit C and explain your participation in this incident to the Committee and your knowledge of the surrounding circumstances?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, during 1987 I took part in the arrest of one Nthombi Khubeka. I was then a Lieutenant and served under the direct command of Colonel, then Captain, Botha.

I confirm that information was known that she was involved, in that she acted in a co-ordinating capacity between externally trained terrorists and locally trained terrorists.

MR VISSER: Just for the sake of interest Mr du Preez, I understand that if a person, during the struggle, had been trained internally, that person was not referred to as a terrorist by you, he had to be trained externally, is that correct?

MR DU PREEZ: No, that is not correct.

MR VISSER: What is the difference between a terrorist trained outside the country and one trained inside the country?

MR DU PREEZ: The local persons were trained to commit acts of terror similarly as persons who were trained outside.

MR VISSER: Is there a difference between persons who were trained outside the country with regard to the combat of the struggle of the past as you have seen it and the persons trained inside the country?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Please continue.

MR DU PREEZ: She was responsible for the storage of weapons, the provision of accommodation to terrorists and the gathering of intelligence with regard to targets of terror. Her family were well-known activists in kwaMashu. It was decided to infiltrate her and her structure of co-workers and collaborators by members of C1 who had rendered service at that time in Durban and surroundings. Members of C1 succeeded in establishing contact with Khubeka.

MR VISSER: You have heard that Mr Botha had testified that this was done by means of an informant?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Did you know about that, or did you not know about that?

MR DU PREEZ: I was aware of that. I did not know the finer details though.

MR VISSER: Very Well.

MR DU PREEZ: Over the course of many days, members of Vlakplaas reported that Khubeka had confirmed that she acted in a co-ordinating capacity and had played a leading role with regard to accommodation of externally trained terrorists in kwaMashu and had shown arms to them which she had stored on the terrorists' behalf.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just ask you, Mr du Preez, to clear up something here? You say that she admitted that she acted in a co-ordinating capacity. To whom did she admit?

MR DU PREEZ: It was to the sources.

ADV BOSMAN: But she admitted to them without knowing that they were members of C1?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct.

ADV BOSMAN: So actually they said that they had information because admit indicates and accusation and then she had admitted it, it was not that she admitted it.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct. They pretended to be trained terrorists. The idea was to try and apprehend the terrorists by making use of Khubeka. An appointment was made on a day that the leader of the group...(intervention).

MR WILLS: Sorry, can I just ask again for it to be a little bit slower? Thank you. If you can start that paragraph ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, maybe if you could just go a little bit slower please so that the interpreter can get it and so that we can keep up with the notes, particularly Mr Wills who has to take it all down.

MR DU PREEZ: The idea was to try to apprehend these terrorists by making use of Khubeka. An appointment was made on a day that the leader of the group of terrorists, who was hidden by Khubeka, to be arrested. The person had to be lured to a place which had been agreed on beforehand, namely the Durban beach front at Battery Beach.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr du Preez. Battery Beach, is that the beach that is in front of the old Military Command headquarters?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct Chairperson. That was the part between there and it was also known as Sunkist.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it near where the snake park used to be there?

MR DU PREEZ: No, it's further up.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR DU PREEZ: Col Botha, van der Westhuizen, Basson and I had by late that afternoon, held surveillance at this place. Mbane would give a sign if the terrorist or terrorists were with him in the motor vehicle. The windows of his vehicle were tinted so that we could not see inside.

MR VISSER: Can you recall what type of vehicle it was?

MR DU PREEZ: It was a Toyota.

MR VISSER: Very well.

MR DU PREEZ: A Corolla. Now that Mbane arrived there and had parked there, he gave the sign after a short while. We struck, only to find that Khubeka was alone with Mbane in the vehicle. We then arrested her and she was immediately removed from the vehicle and taken to our vehicle.

MR VISSER: Mr du Preez, the vehicle which you referred to as "our vehicle", what type of vehicle was this?

MR DU PREEZ: It was a Toyota panel van, a kombi.

MR VISSER: A panel van, does it have windows on the sides and at the back?

MR DU PREEZ: It only has one set of windows where the sliding door is.

MR VISSER: What was your part in this so-called arrest? What did you do exactly?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I can recall when Nthombi came out of the vehicle...(intervention)

MR VISSER: Please refer to her as Khubeka.

MR DU PREEZ: When Khubeka was removed from the vehicle, I grabbed her from behind and lifted her. I lifted her up and moved to the vehicle, so she was half dragged and half carried to the kombi.

MR VISSER: How far from the Toyota was the kombi?

MR DU PREEZ: I don't think it was more than 10 metres.

MR VISSER: Can you give a description of the build of Khubeka?

MR DU PREEZ: She was a large woman and overweight.

MR VISSER: Will you continue please?

MR DU PREEZ: I was given instruction by Col Botha to take her to the old S A S Police shooting range at Winkelspruit for interrogation. At that stage we had used the shooting range as an operation bases. There were ablution facilities and storage rooms. We had indeed slept there some evenings and some of the askaris also stayed there during their visit on this occasion.

It was already dusk when we arrived at the shooting range. After I had handed over Khubeka to Col Taylor or Col Botha, I departed, for I had other obligations.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr du Preez, what do you mean "after you handed her over to Col Taylor, or Col Botha"? Did you hand her over to both of them, or one of them, or can't you remember to whom you handed her over?

MR DU PREEZ: I think both of them were there and I handed her over to both of them, or both of them received her.

MR LAX: But Botha was with you in the vehicle, how could you have handed her over to him if he was with you and in control of the operation?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall where Botha was, whether he was in front in the kombi. I was in the back of the kombi and I held Khubeka under control and what I mean by that is, when we arrived at the camp, I handed her over to them.

MR LAX: Yes, but the way you've written this and the way you've just testified is that when you got there you handed her over to them, one or the other, in other words that they weren't with you. His evidence is that he was with you in the vehicle. Do you see the difference?

MR DU PREEZ: What I mean here, Chairperson is that she was no longer under my control. I did not exercise control over her any longer.

MR LAX: You see his evidence was that more than just you had to subdue her and put her in the vehicle. You weren't acting on your own.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: There were five of you at least, according to what he told us.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And - so I'm just a little puzzled why you've used this expression that you "handed her over", as if you had formal control over her and then you passed her on to the next level of control. You'll concede, that's the impression you create here.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: But he had control over all of you because he was the officer in control at the scene and in the vehicle, not so?

MR DU PREEZ: That's possibly so.

MR LAX: It is definitely so. He was your Commanding officer at that point.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Mr du Preez, can you recall today that in your memory, Mr Botha was with you in the same vehicle when you travelled to Winkelspruit?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Who was second in Command after Capt Botha at that stage?

MR DU PREEZ: I was in command after Botha.

MR VISSER: Very well, will you please proceed? You say that you handed her over to Taylor or Botha or both and then you wanted to say?

MR DU PREEZ: I then departed, for I had other obligations. With my return later I was informed that Khubeka had died, possibly of a heart attack.

MR VISSER: Can you recall who told this to you?

MR DU PREEZ: Botha told me this.

MR VISSER: Very well. It may then be so that with the drawing up of the statement I had erred, but will you please continue with paragraph 13?

MR DU PREEZ: Col Taylor requested Sgt Wasserman and myself to dispose of the body in the vicinity of kwaMashu where it could be found.

MR VISSER: I would like to ask you, was Col Taylor alone when he spoke to you and Wasserman?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, if I recall correctly, at the time of this conversation, Col Taylor, Botha, myself and Wasserman were present when Taylor informed us that we had to dispose of the body.

MR VISSER: Because Mr Botha testified that his recollection is that he requested you to dispose of the body. It is possible, Chairperson, because there was a discussion. As far as I can recall the final instruction came from Col Taylor.

MR VISSER: Very well. If I may refer you to paragraph 17, we will return to paragraph 14 and then what is written here is not strictly speaking correct. You say

"My motivation to execute the instructions of Col Botha..."

What would be the correct situation?

MR DU PREEZ: That would be Taylor and Botha, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Will you then proceed at paragraph 14, or rather, "in the vicinity of kwaMashu, to dispose of the body in the vicinity of kwaMashu".

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct.

MR VISSER: Mr Botha's recollection is that he requested to you dispose of the body close to her home. Can you recall that?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Visser, may I just interpose here? Mr du Preez, did I hear correctly that you said there was a discussion, or did I not hear correctly? It may be possible that I did not hear correctly.

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct. I said that there was a discussion after Botha had informed me that the person, Khubeka, had died. I, Col Taylor, Wasserman and Botha held a discussion.

ADV BOSMAN: So you confirm that you used the word "discussion"? So I would want to hear briefly what was the content of this discussion, so we can get clarity about this.

MR DU PREEZ: The discussion was that Taylor and Botha informed us that the body had to be disposed of close to her home.

ADV BOSMAN: But that is not a discussion, Mr du Preez, that is an instruction. I would like to arrive at the discussion. Did you just receive an instruction, or was there a discussion?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it was just said that we had to take the corpse and drop it off close to a place close to her home.

ADV BOSMAN: So that was actually an instruction?

MR DU PREEZ: To what I referred to as a description.

ADV BOSMAN: I do not want to split hairs, but a discussion has a far wider implication.

MR LAX: The way I recorded it and I was listening to your Afrikaans and just translating it myself, but you said that you discussed the matter. I assumed that was the matter of her death. Is that right?

MR DU PREEZ: Botha told me that she died of a heart attack.

MR LAX: And you said that immediately after that you and Wasserman, Taylor and Botha had a discussion. Was that discussion about what to do about it?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct. That is where Botha and Taylor told us what to do with the body.

MR LAX: ... (indistinct) that discussion as I understood from your evidence. That was the impression you gave me, that you and Wasserman, Taylor and Botha all discussed what the next step would be and finally you got an instruction to dump the body. Have I understood you correctly?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it was not my decision,

MR LAX: I'm not saying it was your decision, I'm saying, were you part of the discussion about what to do with the body and then finally you got an order after the discussion was concluded. Have I understood you correctly?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, Wasserman and I were present when Taylor and Botha decided what to do.

MR LAX: Did you contribute to that discussion?

MR DU PREEZ: No.

MR LAX: So you were just present, they spoke about it in your presence and then they informed you of their decision?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. And when you received the order, what did you do?

MR DU PREEZ: Sgt Wasserman and I executed the order and dropped her off in the grass next to the Inanda road, near Bambayi.

MR VISSER: Now before we get to that, where was she, the body of Khubeka, when you had to transport her?

MR DU PREEZ: She was in a storage room, she lay in a storeroom and Wasserman and I waited until all the members were asleep or were away, I cannot recall. The camp was quiet and then we drove the vehicle until it was adjacent to the storeroom, we picked up Khubeka and placed her in the boot of the car.

MR VISSER: Was her body wrapped in anything?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Was she clothed?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Can you recall the appearance of the clothing?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall.

MR VISSER: Can you recall the colours of the clothing, even though you cannot recall the items of clothing themselves?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson, I cannot recall.

MR VISSER: In what vehicle did you transport her?

MR DU PREEZ: A Nissan Skyline.

MR VISSER: And whose vehicle was this?

MR DU PREEZ: It was mine.

CHAIRPERSON: Your private vehicle, or was it a police vehicle?

MR DU PREEZ: It was my police vehicle.

MR VISSER: The place where you and Wasserman dropped her off, you say this was in the grass next to the Inanda road. Could you just give a finer description to the Committee of how far away from the road this was and also if you could perhaps provide some form of a landmark or something in order to indicate to us where precisely you dropped the body off?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it was next to the road, opposite the Ghandi settlement, there's a place there known as the Ghandi settlement and Bambayi would be on the opposite side against the hill slope. And it was in that area between Ghandi settlement and Bambayi.

MR VISSER: Did you think that the body would be discovered there?

MR DU PREEZ: Yes, Chairperson, we left her approximately 15 metres from the road and I was certain that somebody would find the body there.

MR VISSER: Were there any signs that people were moving through that area where she had been dropped?

MR DU PREEZ: Yes, Chairperson, during the day there were many pedestrians there, it is a taxi route.

MR VISSER: And was it your own experience that there were people moving about there during the day?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct.

MR VISSER: And if a body were to be found there, where would the nearest police station be where one could report this from that point?

MR DU PREEZ: kwaMashu would have been the closest.

MR VISSER: Were there also any other police stations in that vicinity?

MR DU PREEZ: The nearest police stations, that would be Phoenix and Inanda police stations.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed, Mr Visser. Are you saying the nearest police station is kwaMashu, then the next nearest is Phoenix?

MR DU PREEZ: Phoenix and Inanda, yes.

MR VISSER: Were there any state mortuaries in the vicinity where bodies which were found would be taken to?

MR DU PREEZ: As far as I knew there was a state mortuary in kwaMashu.

MR VISSER: Did you know where Mrs Khubeka resided?

MR DU PREEZ: I did. She stayed in G Section.

MR VISSER: Now G Section, if one consults Exhibit D and follows the line from the M2 in a north-easterly direction, then there is a railway line, it would appear due to S A R which is stated next to it, that runs from kwaMashu north in the direction of Inanda. Is that correct? Do you see it?

MR DU PREEZ: Yes, I see it.

MR VISSER: Now if you were to take the railway line as a point of reference, was G Section on the left side, that would be the western side, or the right side being the eastern side of that railway line?

MR DU PREEZ: That would be on the left side, the western side.

MR VISSER: Very well. That area there, is it rural or are there many people living there? What is the position in that area where you left the body?

MR DU PREEZ: It was a big open grass field at that stage.

MR VISSER: No, I'm referring to that area. Were there any homes nearby or not?

MR DU PREEZ: No, there were no houses near that place at that stage.

MR VISSER: Very well. Would you continue with paragraph 16, beg your pardon, 15?

MR DU PREEZ: I did not report the incident and consequently I made myself guilty of defeating the ends of justice.

MR VISSER: Yes and other offences with regard to bodies, isn't that so?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Continue.

MR DU PREEZ: From documents now before the Committee, it is alleged that Khubeka's body was exhumed and that it was found that she had a bullet wound in the back of her head.

MR VISSER: Yes, we know that the bullet wound is actually on the top of her head, but continue.

MR DU PREEZ: I know that she did not have any bullet wounds. According to me and Wasserman, her body was dropped off next to the Inanda highway, near Bambayi.

MR VISSER: Yes, and there is a reference, for the information of the Committee, to the TRC report. Please continue, paragraph 17.

MR DU PREEZ: My motivation to carry out the orders of Col Botha by abducting Khubeka and afterwards dropping off her body, was an action in support of the liberation attempt against the revolutionary onslaught and especially to spare the government and the SAP political embarrassment during a period of time when there was much criticism, both internally and internationally, against the government.

The ANC used all events which indicated at offences of the Security Forces and made propaganda out of it in order to place the government in the worst possible light. My actions were aimed at the protection and maintenance of the former government and constitutional dispensation.

The acts and omissions which I committed, I committed in the execution of my official duties under the order of a higher officer, whose orders I was obliged to execute. I did this as part of the opposition to the struggle and my actions were aimed against supporters of the liberation movement.

MR VISSER: And the next sentence is a repetition. Please continue with paragraph 22.

MR DU PREEZ: As such I believed bona fide that what I did fell within my express or implied authorisation. I humbly request that amnesty be granted to me for my acts and omissions in this regard.

MR VISSER: And as previously stated or indicated by the Chairperson of this Committee, during argument you will be led regarding - it will be discussed exactly what you have applied for and you request amnesty for that?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you finished, Mr Visser?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairperson, I again neglected to ask something.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR VISSER: Mr Visagie - can you recall whether, during the events of the particular evening upon which Mrs Khubeka died, whether you saw him there at the scene?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall.

MR VISSER: Therefore you wouldn't really be able to say what his share was, if any, in this event?

MR DU PREEZ: No.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Nel, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the witness?

MR NEL: Thank you Mr Chairman, only one.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL: Mr du Preez can you recall in any way whether Mr Spyker Myeza was involved in this incident in any way on that evening or that day?

MR DU PREEZ: No, I cannot recall.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR VAN DER MERWE: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Botha, do you have any questions you'd like to ask. Just for record purposes, Ms Botha is standing in for Mr Hugo who is involved in another matter held in these same premises.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS BOTHA: Mr du Preez, during the meeting and delivery at Battery Beach, did you in any way see Mr Simon Radebe there in the vicinity?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall. I cannot recall whether I would have been able to identify any of the persons as being present there.

MS BOTHA: Because Mr Radebe will say later that he drove the vehicle and because he was seated behind the steering wheel, he activated the indicator light, but you cannot recall seeing him there?

MR DU PREEZ: It is possible.

MS BOTHA: And when you arrived at Winkelspruit, you were sent to buy food, how long were you away?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall the length of time which I was away, all that I can recall about the incident is that when I returned Botha, informed me about the death of Khubeka.

MS BOTHA: And when you returned after buying food, did you see Mr Simon Radebe anywhere there in the area?

MR DU PREEZ: No.

MS BOTHA: Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTION BY MS BOTHA

MR LAX: Can I just follow up? Did you go and buy food, or did you go and get on with other duties, because your evidence so far is that you went and did other duties?

MR DU PREEZ: I think that among others I went to buy food.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, where would you have gone in relation to the place, the shooting range at Winkelspruit, to buy that food? Would it have been very close by or would you have had to drive some distance, or did you walk there?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I cannot recall precisely what I went to do. My recollection of the incident is that when I returned, Botha told me about the incident.

MR LAX: How long were you away for?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall. I cannot say with certainty.

MR LAX: Was it several hours, or was it 10 minutes?

MR DU PREEZ: I really cannot recall.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Sorry, Mr Chairman, maybe in the light of these questions, there's just maybe one question which I neglected to put to the witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr van der Merwe you may ask questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER MERWE: Mr du Preez, in terms of these questions, my instructions from Mr Baker are that on that specific evening he also drove with you when you went to buy food, do you recall anything like that?

MR DU PREEZ: I do not recall who accompanied me. It is possible that he drove with me.

MR VAN DER MERWE: And that at the stage, when you returned, he was with you when you were informed that Mrs Khubeka had passed away.

MR DU PREEZ: That is possible, Chairperson.

MR VAN DER MERWE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Samuel, do you have any questions you'd like to ask the witness?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL: Maj du Preez, on the morning in question, do you recall what were the instructions given to Mr Jimmy Mbane, or Mr Radebe for that matter?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, I did not speak to them.

MR SAMUEL: Were you present at the meeting when the instructions were given to either Mr Radebe or Mr Jimmy Mbane as to what they should do in regard to Ms Khubeka?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, I wasn't.

MR SAMUEL: Do you know any reason as to why Ms Khubeka was brought to Mr Botha and yourself on that day?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, when we departed for the beach front, I understood that the C1 members would bring the terrorists to this rendezvous point.

MR LAX: If I may interpose, Mr Samuel? You've just referred to terrorists in the plural that were going to be brought to this point, have I understood you correctly?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, that is what I understood, that we would meet a terrorist or terrorists there, that they would bring a terrorist or terrorists to the rendezvous point.

MR LAX: What were you going to do at the meeting place with the terrorists?

MR DU PREEZ: We would arrest them.

MR LAX: So one or more would be irrelevant, you were going to arrest whoever came to that place?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel, you may proceed.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Jimmy Mbane will confirm that he was given instructions to pick up Ms Khubeka from the Durban station and bring her to Battery Beach, but going on from there, do you recall who was in the vehicle that brought Ms Khubeka?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, I cannot recall who the persons were.

MR SAMUEL: So if Mr Radebe and Mr Dube were present in that vehicle, you would not be able to recall that. Am I right?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Mbane's version will be that when they came to Battery Beach with Ms Khubeka, Mr Radebe and Mr Dube were present in the vehicle.

MR DU PREEZ: It is possible.

MR SAMUEL: Do you recall whether you met Mr Jimmy Mbane after he had handed over Ms Khubeka to yourselves?

CHAIRPERSON: You mean on the same day?

MR SAMUEL: The same day, yes.

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Now, do you recall whether Ms Khubeka was handcuffed or tied up when she was put into the vehicle in which you were in?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I cannot recall whether she was cuffed during the journey to Winkelspruit but in the kombi we pressed her down. It was a panel van which was open at the back. There weren't any seats in the vehicle and she was blindfolded.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Preez, is it not so that it would have been common practice to cuff somebody in those circumstances? I mean when you detain a person, or abduct a person, or apprehend a person, wouldn't it just be second nature for you or any other policeman to cuff the detainee?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson, but I cannot recall specifically whether this was done or not. We would have kept her under force. As far as I can recall, after she had been placed in the vehicle, she did not struggle to break loose or anything like that.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Maj du Preez, Major Mr Jimmy Mbane will tell this Commission that when he arrived back at Winkelspruit with Mr Dube and Mr Radebe, he had noticed that Ms Khubeka was tied both hand and foot and she was also blindfolded. Can you admit or deny that?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I recall that she was blindfolded. I cannot recall that her hands and her feet were bound. If her feet were bound, she would certainly not have been able to walk and we would have had to carry her and we didn't do that.

CHAIRPERSON: How was she blindfolded? Can you recall?

MR DU PREEZ: It was a piece of cloth, or a piece of sheet. Possibly a piece of sheet or a pillow case.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't you also want to have her hands cuffed, most likely behind her back, in order to prevent her from tampering with the blindfold, pulling it off?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we were with her all the time and she wouldn't have been able to do anything like that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Preez, anybody, whether you were right there, you weren't holding her by her arms the whole time. You said she was just on the floor of the vehicle. If her hands weren't tied, she could easily have pulled the blindfold off. I mean, that's just so patently obvious.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, in such a case, when a person is held under force, you would tell them to be seated, you would tell them what to do, so that such a person wouldn't have a choice, they are kept under force and they are being told what to do and what is expected of them.

MR LAX: And you people did that, and you remember doing that?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: May she have been cuffed?

MR DU PREEZ: It is possible, Chairperson, but I cannot recall.

MR SAMUEL: Are you suggesting to this Commission that throughout this ordeal and after you all had put her into your vehicle, she had given you no resistance? Is that what you are suggesting to ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: That's not what the evidence is, Mr Chairman. He says there was resistance at the time of the arrest and thereafter, once she was put in the car, there wasn't resistance.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he said that when she was in the vehicle, she didn't struggle. I can't recall precisely what was said about taken to the car other than she was half dragged and half carried. I don't know if, perhaps you can ask a question on that, Mr Samuel.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Major, when Ms Khubeka, who was, in line with your evidence, she was a big built woman, overweight as you put it, did she give any resistance at that stage when you all dragged her out of the motor vehicle in which Mr Mbane was?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I cannot say exactly, she had no choice, we seized her and half picked her up and carried her. She did not kick or scream. We overpowered her completely.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you do that Major? Why not just go up to her and flash your card and say "Look, come with us, we're the police" and let her walk to the vehicle? Why have a whole group of you go in there and grab her?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we were prepared to seize whoever would be in the car and to take them to our vehicle. That was our plan and that is how we executed it.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just ask you, did you know immediately that this was Ms Khubeka, because you actually expected to find terrorists who had been trained abroad, as I understand it. Did you realise that this woman was Ms Khubeka?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it was only once we had her in the vehicle that I realised it was her. We expected terrorists, but we also planned to seize everyone who was in the car and to arrest them.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR SAMUEL: Did you look into that motor vehicle to see whether there were any other persons in that motor vehicle?

MR DU PREEZ: I did, Chairperson, and Ms Khubeka was the only person who I recognised as someone who was not a C1 member, that is why she was the only person who was seized.

MR SAMUEL: How many of you all went to this motor vehicle to carry Ms Khubeka out? Do you recall?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson it was me, Sgt van der Westhuizen, W/O Basson, Col Botha and I think that there were also members of C1 involved, but I cannot recall who from C1 was there of the white members of C1.

MR SAMUEL: Prior to this day in question when Ms Khubeka was handed to you, did Mr Mbane hand over any other people, other terrorists to you or to your group?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Mbane will say that he handed two persons to you, among them was one Sbu and you were present when he handed over Sbu to you all, who was also an ANC activist and later Sbu was killed by your group.

MR DU PREEZ: That he handed him over to me or in my presence?

MR SAMUEL: In your presence, Sir.

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know anything about the man called Sbu?

MR DU PREEZ: It's a very general name, but I don't know of the Sbu that the speaker is referring to.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you. Now, if Mr Mbane informed his handlers, Mr Botha and Mr Taylor about Ms Khubeka's suspicions regarding two people that were supposed to be given safe-houses by Mr Mbane, would you know about that?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson. Botha informed us about what was important regarding the operation and I cannot recall anything like that specifically.

MR SAMUEL: If any payment were made to Mr Mbane by Mr Taylor, would you know about it?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you. Major, I'm going to put Mr Mbane's version to you. You can either admit or deny the contents of it. Mr Mbane will tell this Commission that on the day in question he was requested by Mr Radebe to pick up Ms Khubeka from the Durban station and bring her to Mr Botha together with yourself and other members at Battery Beach. Do you agree with that?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson and I accepted that terrorists or a terrorist would be present.

MR LAX: If I may interpose here, you're answering in a very general way and the question was quite specific. Mbane says his instruction was to pick up Khubeka. You've answered yes, that is so, we were expecting terrorists. Did you know about Khubeka specifically or didn't you?

MR DU PREEZ: I knew that Khubeka was involved with these terrorists and that Mbane and the others worked with Khubeka, that this was their contact person.

MR LAX: So did you expect her to be in the vehicle that day?

MR DU PREEZ: It was possible that she would be in the vehicle.

MR LAX: And that she would be amongst the terrorists that would be picked up?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR SAMUEL: Just before I proceed, I just want to find out one thing. If Ms Khubeka was screaming during this ordeal, would you know about it?

MR LAX: At which stage, Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: While she was being beaten prior to her death.

MR LAX: After arriving back at the shooting range.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, at no stage did I participate in her interrogation.

MR LAX: Yes, but I think the question relates to screaming. Did you hear any screaming?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Why wouldn't that be so? Was she not screaming, or you just didn't hear it?

MR DU PREEZ: The time when I dropped off and delivered Khubeka to Taylor and Botha, she never screamed and during the time that I was there, I never heard her scream.

MR SAMUEL: Right. Mr Mbane will say that after he had handed over Ms Khubeka to Mr Botha and yourself and the other members, he had then returned to Winkelspruit where he had met you all at the Winkelspruit shooting range.

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that Mbane arrived there.

ADV BOSMAN: Didn't they sleep there, the members of C1?

MR DU PREEZ: Yes, but they moved around quite a bit, during this time they were away quite often.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MR SAMUEL: He will also say that when he got back to the shooting range, he noticed Ms Khubeka was both blindfolded and tied, both hands and feet.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not correct.

MR SAMUEL: And he is more specific in regard to how she was tied. He says she was tied with a piece of rope.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not correct.

MR SAMUEL: He will say on occasions whilst Ms Khubeka was being interrogated and beaten, the door was open and he noticed Mr Botha and Mr Taylor both on some occasion or the other hitting Ms Khubeka with a whip.

MR DU PREEZ: I wouldn't know about that.

MR SAMUEL: And he will say also that the reason why Ms Khubeka was specifically asked to be brought to Mr Botha and yourselves, was that Ms Khubeka had informed him that there was a handler or a Commander of two men and Ms Khubeka had handed of to Mr Mbane to find safe-houses for and she wanted to see them and she was becoming suspicious. He further will state that he told Mr Botha and you were present at that time and Mr Taylor about Ms Khubeka's suspicions and Mr Botha had instructed him to bring Ms Khubeka to him.

MR DU PREEZ: I was not present during such a discussion.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Samuel, I don't think that I fully understand your instructions there. Do you say that Mr Mbane will say that he phoned Botha and that they were present when he phoned?...(indistinct - mike not on) that Mr Mbane phoned Botha and he says du Preez and Taylor were present when he phoned?

MR SAMUEL: I don't recall using the word phoned, but that's not what I meant.

ADV BOSMAN: I may have it wrong, but this is what I wrote down.

MR SAMUEL: I'm sorry, Madam, the position is that Ms Khubeka had given Mr Mbane two cadres to find safe-house for and Ms Khubeka became suspicious because she did not meet them thereafter, in fact Mr Mbane will say that both these people were killed. In any event, Ms Khubeka wanted to see them, these two cadres and he then - she became suspicious and she also stated that the Commander of the cadres was in Durban and wished to see them. Mr Mbane will also state that he reported this to Mr Botha together with Mr Taylor in which meeting you were also present.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Samuel, perhaps - have you got instructions as to where that meeting took place?

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman. At Winkelspruit where they normally meet up.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I don't know anything about this discussion or this person.

MR SAMUEL: He will say that Mr Botha had instructed him to bring Ms Nthombi Khubeka to yourselves, to your group.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not correct.

MR SAMUEL: And that is the reason why they agreed to meet Ms Khubeka or made a rendezvous with Ms Khubeka to take her, to pick her up at the Durban Station and bring her to you all at Battery Beach.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not correct.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something? You're saying this isn't so. Your previous evidence was that you don't remember that happening at all, but you said you weren't present at any such meeting.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, what I understand from the allegation is that something like that was said and that I was present during such a discussion and that is not correct.

MR LAX: ...(indistinct) what's not so is that you weren't there.

MR DU PREEZ: I don't know of any such discussion.

MR LAX: What I wanted to clarify was, is it possible that such a meeting took place and you simply don't remember it, or are you absolutely certain it never happened?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, from what Botha explained to us, when we would have undertaken the rendezvous at Battery Beach, this does not concur. Botha explained to us that Jimmy Mbane and the others would bring terrorists to that point, terrorists who would be arranged by Khubeka.

CHAIRPERSON: The question which Mr Lax is asking you is, are you saying that the meeting referred to now by Mr Samuel, namely that took place at the shooting range where Mr Mbane says that you were present when he told Taylor and Botha about the suspicions of the deceased, of Ms Khubeka, and that he was then instructed to go and fetch Ms Khubeka and bring her to the group, now that discussion, are you saying that you can't remember such a discussion, or are you saying no, such a discussion never took place?

MR DU PREEZ: I was not present during such discussion.

MR LAX: In other words you're saying as far as you're concerned no such thing ever happened because if it had happened you would have remembered it? Do you see the difference?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, all I'm saying is that I was not present during such a discussion.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr du Preez perhaps I can assist you with this question in Afrikaans. The question is are you saying that you were not present or are you saying that you were not present and that no such discussion ever took place.

MR DU PREEZ: What I am saying is that I was not present.

ADV BOSMAN: In other words there may have been such a discussion during which you were not present?

MR DU PREEZ: It is possible, but then it would also be strange to me that Botha would have told us something other than what he had discussed with Jimmy Mbane.

ADV BOSMAN: I think that you have now answered Mr Lax's question. Thank you very much.

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman, you will recall that the last part of Mr Samuel's question was, or statement was that Mbane had to bring Khubeka to the group there and that he specifically denied, that was his denial.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Samuel.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you. Mr Mbane will say that he was present when the body was removed from the room and put into the motor vehicle, do you recall that? Or he was able to see when the body was being removed from the room and put into the motor vehicle.

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, I think that that would have been impossible because the door of the room pointed in another direction from where the members were sleeping.

ADV BOSMAN: Can you perhaps recall where Mr Botha was when you loaded the body into the vehicle?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson, but what I can recall is that Wasserman and I waited until there was no-one in the vicinity. We waited for everyone to go to sleep or for those members who were going away to depart and once the situation presented itself, we loaded the body into the vehicle.

ADV BOSMAN: So you said that Mr Botha was not in the vicinity or can you not recall?

MR DU PREEZ: No-one was present.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're saying as far as you are concerned, as far as you believe, no-one saw you loading that body into the Skyline?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: And your reason for that would be the reason why Jimmy could not have seen you, it's because the room that he was in, it was impossible in your words to see the body being removed?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I don't know where Jimmy was precisely. It is my evidence that I didn't see anyone in the vicinity, if Jimmy was perhaps watching us from a place where he could observe the scene, it is possible, but when we removed the body from the storeroom and placed the body in the vehicle, there was no-one on the premises who was still up, or walking about.

CHAIRPERSON: Because Mr Botha said he saw the body being put into the vehicle.

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that.

MR LAX: And obviously if Botha says he saw it, others may have seen it. You might be under the firm belief that nobody saw you, but he says it and Mbane says it. Is that not a possibility?

MR DU PREEZ: It is possible.

MR LAX: And that you're mistaken maybe in your belief that nobody saw you.

MR DU PREEZ: It is possible.

MR LAX: Just a question, why did you take such care to hide all of this from everybody?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, this was a person who had died and we were on the verge of dealing unlawfully with this body.

MR LAX: But everyone knew she was dead, everyone was present, everybody knew that she died during the interrogation.

MR VISSER: With respect, Mr Chairman, everybody wasn't present. That is not the evidence, with great respect. the evidence of the applicants was that certain people were in that room, it is now being put that other people may have seen, may not have seen, but it's not the evidence that everybody and with that I include the askaris because that seems to be everybody and we don't even know who everybody was that were on the farm. That's not a fair question.

MR LAX: Fair enough, I'll change the question. The fact of the matter is though, that whoever was in that room and busy with interrogation knew about it.

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct. I assumed that there were other persons who knew about it.

MR LAX: Were you aware that the black members who were there and around the room and outside the room, knew that this person was dead?

MR DU PREEZ: I didn't know that. It is possible that they may have assumed it or may have come to hear of it, but I don't know.

MR LAX: I'll leave it there, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chair. So your statement that it would have been impossible for anyone to have noticed you is wrong, clearly now after your answers thus far.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he went - he didn't say it was impossible for people to notice, he said that Mr Mbane wouldn't have seen because the door where the body was taken pointed to a different place from where they slept. It will be impossible if Mr Mbane said he was in the place where he slept when he saw it, according to his evidence. I don't know whether it's possible or not.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Mbane says that when this body was removed from this room, it was covered in a blanket. Do you recall that, Sir?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: And you still maintaining that although you had taken such care to remove the body without anybody seeing it, you did not take the added precaution of wrapping this body in a blanket? Are you maintaining that Sir?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct Chairperson. We parked the vehicle so that the boot would be right next to the entrance of the room.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I don't want to interrupt my learned friend, but while this witness is present and is under cross-examination, perhaps he could tell us where Mr Mbane was when he saw all these things? Why should that be a secret.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR SAMUEL: Thank you Mr Chairman. And I think an in locus inspection might assist. According to Mr Mbane the room where he was in he could see the motor vehicle and the entrance, or the exit from which you all came out. Basically he was in his room.

CHAIRPERSON: The room where they sleep, where he was sleeping at that time?

MR SAMUEL: That is correct.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, if he was in the room where they were sleeping, he would definitely not have been able to see.

CHAIRPERSON: Does this shooting range still exist, do you know?

MR DU PREEZ: I think that it is now a public place. I don't know whether the building still exists.

MR SAMUEL: In any event what Mr Botha had seen and what Mr Mbane says he saw seems to tie up because Mr Mbane will say that this body was never put into a Nissan Skyline, it was put into a Toyota panel van. I think Mr Botha also confirms that.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not correct.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Samuel, Mr Botha couldn't remember what kind of vehicle it was. That was his evidence.

MR SAMUEL: My apologies if that was the case, but I understood him as saying that it was a Toyota, but be that as it may. Mr Mbane will say he looked at that body and it would have been virtually impossible because of the size of the body to put it into a Nissan Skyline, in the boot especially of a Nissan Skyline.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, that is the vehicle that we loaded her into.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr du Preez, were you not concerned at all about evidence being left in the boot of your vehicle, strands of hair, whatever? Did you not think about wrapping up the body or putting it in a plastic bag, or whatever, to prevent your boot being contaminated with evidence that a body had been transported in it?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson, there was nothing that I could think of which would have remained behind of the body, which would have been able to serve as proof.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm a lay man, I'm not a policeman, but a strand of hair can be proof that there was a body. The smallest stain might provide proof that there was a body. Did you not think of that at all?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Major, Mr Mbane will say that he was paid the sum of R7 000 for this operation. You wouldn't know anything about it?

MR DU PREEZ: I wouldn't know that.

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions or submissions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, do you have any questions that you have to put to the witness?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Mr du Preez, it's obvious from the evidence thus far that your unit and by your unit I'm talking about the Durban Security Policemen, had an intense interest in the deceased in this matter, prior to her demise?

MR DU PREEZ: In the family or this person?

MR WILLS: No, the deceased, the person, Nthombi Khubeka.

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, she was under our attention.

MR WILLS: Yes and if she was so involved with her relatives being in Lusaka in the ANC I presume, and involved with internal and external trained guerrillas and your unit was specifically set up to deal with intelligence in that regard, she'd be a person who you'd want to speak to, I'd imagine.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, she was under our attention and that is exactly why the members of C1 were called in.

MR WILLS: Yes, but specifically, she's a person that you would want information from, you would want to speak to her.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, one couldn't always speak to every single person who was a suspect.

MR WILLS: I'm not asking whether you could or you couldn't. I'm asking you what must be the probabilities in this case, that she was one of the people who you would want to speak to because she had all of this information, she was such an important person.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson that is exactly why we enlisted C Section members.

MR WILLS: Yes, because you wanted to speak to her. Is that right?

MR DU PREEZ: We wanted to find out more about her activities.

MR WILLS: Yes. And there's various ways of finding out about her activities. The one is that you send people in and you, like happened at least for part of the situation in this case where you sent the C1 members in to infiltrate.

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And the other way is just to interrogate her. Not so?

MR DU PREEZ: That could have been an option. We did not exercise that option.

MR WILLS: Why not?

MR DU PREEZ: Because we had enlisted C1 members.

MR WILLS: But are these options mutually exclusive?

MR DU PREEZ: I don't understand the question.

MR WILLS: I'm saying why can't you do both?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the option that we exercised according to my evidence, is the one that I gave testimony about.

MR WILLS: Well, as I understood your questioning, your answers to the questions by Commissioner Lax, you can't remember exactly what the instruction was from Col Botha as regards whether or not she was going to be brought with other terrorists or not. Is that correct?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the evidence that I gave indicated that what I understood from Botha was that this Khubeka handled the terrorists and that she would have arranged for us to meet them there at the rendezvous point and the possibility existed that she would also be present during this rendezvous.

MR WILLS: Yes and so if she was present, if the possibility existed that she would be present at this rendezvous point, then it must imply that you considered talking to her because otherwise why would she be present? You would make sure that she wasn't present.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, this would normally have flowed forth from an arrest, for us to talk to her.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr du Preez, did Col Botha tell you that she could possibly present, or did you just say that you thought that she could possibly be present? That isn't clear to me.

MR DU PREEZ: What I understood from Botha is that Khubeka arranged for terrorists to meet at Battery Beach, that there would be a meeting at Battery Beach and we would have arrested the terrorists at this point. And I understood from that that she would automatically be present herself because she arranged the rendezvous. Did you draw the conclusion that she could possibly be present there?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Sorry, Mr Wills. Thank you.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Sorry, in answer to your last question the interpreter used the words "she would automatically be present", that implies to me that you expected her to be present.

MR DU PREEZ: No, that's not what I said, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Sorry may I ask if the interpreter made a mistake in that regard?

INTERPRETER: I clearly recall hearing the applicant say that he used the word automatic.

MR VISSER: That was the Afrikaans Mr Chairman, he said

"She would be automatically there because she arranged the meeting."

MR LAX: There wasn't a mistake Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you. So you expected her to be there?

You must have, if she would automatically be there, because she arranged the meeting.

MR DU PREEZ: I expected her to be there.

MR WILLS: Yes, so it wasn't a possibility now, she was part of the plan and she was one of the people that were going to be arrested that day, not so?

MR DU PREEZ: That is so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed Mr Wills, I'd just like to intervene on a point. You say she arranged the meeting. Do you know who determined Battery Beach to be the rendezvous point? Who decided that the vehicle, the Toyota Corolla, containing the deceased and maybe other persons, go to Battery Beach and that you wait there?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall you mentioned that place or determined that place, whether it was Botha, or whether it was Jimmy Mbane, or whether it was Khubeka, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you expecting the possibility of a shoot-out? In other words, if that vehicle contained three or four other people, you were there, your group was there, was there the possibility of a shoot-out?

MR DU PREEZ: We were armed Chairperson. One was always armed when you arrested terrorists.

CHAIRPERSON: So that possibility existed that there might have been a shoot-out?

MR DU PREEZ: It was possible.

CHAIRPERSON: What's your personal view on the suitability of Battery Beach being a rendezvous point in those circumstances?

MR DU PREEZ: I did not have a problem with it, Chairperson. Many meetings were arranged in and around the city with terrorists for similar operations.

MR LAX: Can I just follow up Mr Wills, before you go on? There's just something puzzling me here, it's just bothering me really. You say that she was arranging the meeting?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, I said that I don't know whether she arranged it.

MR LAX: But you've just said ...(intervention)

MR DU PREEZ: Do you specifically refer to the place, or the rendezvous point?

MR LAX: Your answer as it was translated earlier was, she was arranging the meeting and therefore automatically she would be there, now flowing from that, if she was arranging the meeting, obviously the point at which they were going to meet must have been determined by her? That follows, doesn't it? It's a question of logic.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I am not certain of the facts as you have put them now, whether she arranged for the persons to be present.

MR LAX: Yes, but how would she know where they were going to meet? If she was organising the meeting it was logical that the venue would be chosen by her.

MR DU PREEZ: It is possible that Mbane may have told her where to meet. I was not present when those arrangements were made.

MR LAX: The question is though that the expectation was that she would come there together with some terrorists.

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR LAX: And you people were waiting there to observe the meeting and arrest them.

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Mr Chairperson, I'd just like to finish this point very briefly before the tea adjournment.

Thank you. The evidence of Mr Botha yesterday was that he was surprised that she was in the car. This is obviously not your recollection of the meeting, you were expecting her to be there?

MR VISSER: There's a subtle difference, Chairman, as Commissioner Lax likes to put it, between he was surprised to find her in the car and he was surprised to find her alone in the car and we submit that that is what Botha said.

MR LAX: In fact he didn't expect her there at all.

MR VISSER: That is in fact precisely correct. He didn't expect her there, according to his arrangements made with Mbane, he expected terrorists there.

MR LAX: He didn't expect terrorists there, he expected the leader of the group to be there, to be precise about it.

MR VISSER: Yes, but he did say Mr Chairman, with respect, he expected the leader of the group because that's what he asked Mbane to bring there, but he also conceived the possibility that there may be another terrorist, so when I say terrorists, I mean the leader of the group and/or others.

MR WILLS: My understanding, with respect, Mr Chairman, of the evidence of Botha was that the arrest and the fact that Khubeka was there was a complete surprise to him. He wasn't expecting her there in the least and it was in fact a bit of a mistake,...(intervention).

MR LAX: A blunder, to put it plainly.

MR WILLS: A blunder that she was there and that she was arrested, that was the evidence of Botha.

MR VISSER: I don't object to that at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on then, Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you. My question, to repeat, my final question on this point is that, if Botha was surprised that she would be in the car at that time, that certainly was not your impression, not so?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I was surprised that no terrorists were present.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question Mr Wills is putting to you is, did you get the impression that Mr Botha, or Col Botha was surprised that Ms Khubeka was in the vehicle at Battery Beach?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I'll leave it there.

I'm not finished my cross-examination, I've got a number of other issues to ...(intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: You specifically said you just wanted to finish that point. I'm just finishing my note.

Yes, thank you. We'll now take the short tea adjournment till half past 11.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you wish to remove your jackets, please do so and please don't wait for me everyday to say so, just remove them.

MR SAMUEL: Mr Chairman, may I just apologise for any delay I have caused.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Samuel. Mr Wills, you were busy questioning the applicant, Maj du Preez.

MR WILLS: Thank you Chairperson.

SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: (cont.)

Now, if it was expected that you were going to be arresting, for want of a better phrase, Khubeka on the day in question, so too it must have been expected that you were going to do something with her, not so?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I did not suppose there was a possibility that she would also be on the scene. I did not expect that we would arrest her. May I just say that we expected that we would arrest terrorists.

MR WILLS: I put it to you that that wasn't your earlier evidence, but even on the basis that there was a possibility that she would be arrested then so too you must have planned for something to happen in consequence of that arrest, not so? You don't just arrest someone and then not know what to do with the person. I want to know what you planned to do with her in the event that she was arrested.

MR DU PREEZ: In such a case, such a person would be a witness.

MR WILLS: Is that what was discussed, that you'd use her as a witness?

MR DU PREEZ: No, I didn't discuss it Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Surely the ...(intervention)

MR DU PREEZ: It was not supposed that she would be arrested, or it was not planned that she would be arrested, so there was no planning with regard to what would happen after the arrest.

MR WILLS: You must agree that she was a useful source of intelligence to you, potentially.

MR DU PREEZ: I am not entirely sure of the question.

MR WILLS: You must agree, I'll repeat, that she was potentially a major source of intelligence to you and your operations and you, please unless I refer specifically to the contrary, when I speak of you, I'm referring to you as the Durban Security Branch.

MR DU PREEZ: She handled terrorists and helped them with the storage of arms, so she was of interest.

MR WILLS: Yes and so as a result of that surely and I put this to you, you must have wanted to speak to her to get that information?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we sent in C1 members to meet with her and it would have placed the operation at a disadvantage if we arrested her and spoke to her.

MR WILLS: Well, why was that?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson with an intelligence operation one plans how the persons would be arrested and it was decided that C1 members would be sent in to meet with this person for the purpose of arresting terrorists. At no stage was it planned that Khubeka would be arrested and interrogated.

MR WILLS: That wasn't my question. I asked you why was it - I think your answer was a security risk to the operation if you spoke to her. I'm asking you why was that?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that, my note says it would have been a disadvantage to have arrested her.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you. Why would it have been a disadvantage to you?

MR DU PREEZ: It would have been deemed unnecessary, the operation, to send in the C1 members and then the operation would have been of no value at all.

MR WILLS: So, is the inference of your evidence that under all circumstances, you wanted to keep a distance from her and not let anybody know that the police had ever come into contact with her?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we wanted to arrest terrorists through her, by establishing contact with her, we wanted to arrest terrorists.

MR WILLS: Yes, but please, possibly you're not understanding me. I'll repeat my question. It seems to me that you wanted to make sure that nobody else around in the community that she was operating in knew that yourselves, being the police, had anything to do with her.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I cannot think that such an impression would be created.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr du Preez, did you understand Mr Wills' question correctly? His question was that did you want to create the impression with the community that the police had nothing to do with that?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I don't know how one would create such an impression, whether I would go to the community and tell everybody "I am not interested in this person", I don't know what Mr Wills means. How would I create such an impression? If I had to necessarily drive around in the community and tell them that I am not interested in this person, I do not understand.

CHAIRPERSON: If we could even go further with Mr Wills' question, is it not correct that you didn't even want to create the impression with Ms Khubeka that she was dealing with the police, or the police had any interest in her.

MR DU PREEZ: I don't understand.

CHAIRPERSON: You had sent in C1 operatives, askaris, who were pretending to be MK cadres to get information from her, unwittingly from her, without her knowing that she's, that information's being passed to the police.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you as the police, the Security Branch, didn't want her to know that she was dealing in any way with the police.

MR DU PREEZ: That follows automatically Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that is basically what the question was.

MR WILLS: And that if it was found out that she herself had been in your hands, like for example after she was arrested, that would jeopardise your whole operation?

MR DU PREEZ: Please repeat the question.

MR WILLS: If it had been found out by the community that she had been arrested by yourselves as happened, it would have jeopardised your whole intelligence gathering operation.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So one of the considerations as regards what to do with her, was to make sure that nobody would ever find out that she had been arrested.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not so Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Why? When I say nobody, I exclude the police.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, after her arrest, it was tried to establish where the terrorists were with whom she had dealings.

MR WILLS: Please, possibly it's a language problem, but I'll try and ask my question.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps, correct me if I'm wrong Mr Wills, he's saying did you the Security Branch not have an interest to keep her arrest secret that no-one gets to know of the fact that she's arrested?

MR DU PREEZ: That would have been an advantage to us Chairperson, until the time that we arrested persons with whom she had dealings with and the persons of whom she had information about.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, is it not also so that the way this operation must have worked is that the people from C1 who were the people who had infiltrated the unit, would have regular contact with those of you who were slightly higher, possibly you refer to them as handlers and then the handlers through to you, so that you knew at all times, you were aware of what information was being obtained from that information process.

MR DU PREEZ: Botha dealt with them Chairperson, Mr Botha dealt with the C1 members.

MR WILLS: So you are under the impression that Botha must have had regular meetings with those C1 members in order to find out the information that they were receiving?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: And is it not so that if the information that some of these informers were getting was that the deceased was becoming suspicious, in probability that would have been, that fact would have been communicated to Mr Botha. it's an important fact.

MR DU PREEZ: I believe so, Chairperson, I don't know about it.

MR WILLS: Now, you as a Security Policeman, in a situation and this is, I am posing a hypothetical situation, if the person who you're watching is getting suspicious, what would you do in a situation like that?

MR DU PREEZ: It depends on circumstances, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Well, let's put you in these circumstances. You've got two or three people infiltrating that network. She's asking questions about the whereabouts of people. She's getting suspicious, she's saying things that the Security Branch might be onto her. What would you do? Let's say you received that information today and you were still carrying on with the operation?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I think what happened in this instance was that she was encouraged to disclose the addresses of the persons or arrange a meeting for these persons so that they ...(intervention).

MR LAX: With respect Mr du Preez, the whole question here is now, your operation's in jeopardy, the subject of your operation is becoming suspicious, you get that information, now the first thing is, you'll concede, your agents are in danger, number 1, because she's beginning to suspect something funny is going on here. Do you concede that?

MR DU PREEZ: That is what was said.

MR LAX: In that context you really only have two courses of action. You either remove your agents, right, and cancel the operation.

MR DU PREEZ: Correct.

MR LAX: Or you bring the subject in. That's another possibility and probably a more reasonable one if you want to try and get information out of her, particularly in the light of the fact that, as you've said, your real aim was to get the terrorists that she was the contact for.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, in this instance I think it was that she was pressurised to arrange a meeting with this person, that it had been brought forward and that pressure be placed on her to arrange a meeting.

MR LAX: As Col Botha told us yesterday, there wasn't much progress being made in that regard. What's the next best thing after that? Bring her in. Try and get the information out of her yourself, because your agents aren't having any luck. Not so?

MR DU PREEZ: It's a possibility, Chairperson, but that is not what I understood when we went for the operation, or for the arrest.

ADV BOSMAN: Are you saying that you did not know that she was suspicious?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Well I put it to you that you knew very well that day that she was going to be arrested.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not so, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: You'd planned in fact to arrest her in order to get the information from her, simply because your askaris and informers were not succeeding.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not so, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, I want to concentrate for a while on the circumstances of the arrest. Tell me exactly who approached the car and what each person did.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I cannot recall exactly which person was in which position because I cannot even recall in which position Khubeka had sat, whether she was in the front of the vehicle or in the back of the vehicle. What I do recall is that we approached the vehicle and opened the doors to find terrorists and what - in the end there was only Khubeka which was the stranger in the car and I can recall that after she had climbed out of the vehicle, I grabbed her from behind and took her to the kombi. I half lifted her and dragged her to the kombi and this happened very quickly.

MR WILLS: Now you were expecting to arrest terrorists.

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Did you have a back-up vehicle?

MR DU PREEZ: Not that I can recall. We were all in the kombi.

MR WILLS: Were you - did you approach the vehicle with your arms drawn, I mean you weapons drawn?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: What time of the day was this?

MR DU PREEZ: It was dusk.

MR WILLS: So in the full view of the public?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Can you not even recall how many people approached the car? You see, I mean, you were here with me in the hearing we did on the Shabalala's and there was evidence exactly how that arrest took place. One person, I think it was Botha, put the gun in the stomach of the person and other people did other things. That's the sort

of thing that I'm trying to establish here. Can't you remember anything about the actual arrest apart from your own involvement?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, that is how I testified what I can recall of the incident.

MR WILLS: Was the car surrounded?

MR DU PREEZ: I think we opened all the doors simultaneously and each person went to a door.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Preez can you recall the date on which this happened?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, I don't have any recollection.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any idea about the time of the year? What time of the year it was that happened? What the month was?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So could it have been either December or July, as far as you're concerned?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, from evidence later I saw that it was March/April. I don't have any recollection about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember what day of the week it was?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember whether it was a working week day, a Monday to Friday, or whether it occurred over the weekend?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, but I saw that Botha said that he thought it was a Sunday. I don't have any recollection of the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall whether there was rush-hour traffic going by, that Battery Beach is just near the main road to La Lucia, isn't it, or Umhlanga Rocks, kwaMashu and those places?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I can recall that it was quiet, there were very few or no public in the area at all. In our immediate vicinity there were no people who took note of us.

CHAIRPERSON: If it was a Sunday, wouldn't one expect that there would still be people, if it was not yet dark, hanging around the beach front area, if it was a Sunday? Because normally the Sundays the beaches get quite full.

MR DU PREEZ: As far as I can recall Chairperson, it was very quiet at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you. Now as I understand your evidence you were expecting to arrest terrorists and these terrorists were people who were trained outside, people who had come from Zambia, is that right?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Heavily armed men, or dangerous men, I should rather say.

MR DU PREEZ: Correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So I would have thought that you would have sat down beforehand and planned the operation in the event of there being a shoot-out, what to do and each person had what responsibility, did that happen?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that, Chairperson. I assume that there must have been such a discussion, as to what everybody would do there.

MR WILLS: With respect, you don't seem to remember much, Mr du Preez. I would have thought that you would have remembered a plan on how this operation of arrest was going to take place.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, 17/18 years I was - for the 17/18 years I was in the Security Branch I launched thousands of operations where persons were arrested in vehicles and it is something that one does impromptu and on the scene you will observe and at the scene we will say which person will open which door. I was involved in thousands of such matters and that is why I do not have a specific recollection of the incident.

MR WILLS: Were you involved in thousands against women?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: I'm suggesting that because a woman was involved in this instance that it would spark your memory, because it was a different, something different to the usual.

MR DU PREEZ: I can recall that I grabbed her Chairperson.

MR WILLS: You see, wouldn't it also be probable, or wouldn't you have insured that if you were going to be arresting armed people, that you had a back-up vehicle in place in case a shoot-out occurred?

CHAIRPERSON: Or in case you arrested 5 other people, or 4 other people?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we had a kombi which many people could be loaded into. The kombi was specifically taken so that it would not draw any attention.

MR WILLS: But on your evidence there were four people, four or five, sorry, I can't remember, in the kombi and everyone was involved in the operation to get out and arrest. Is that right?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So is that enough people to deal with armed terrorists who might resist arrest? You see, I'll just be plain on this point, I've had, been involved in various criminal trials and inquests where people like this had been arrested and it seems to me that frequently the position is that when it's known that dangerous trained guerrillas are going to be arrested, there is always a back-up, and someone to come in just in case something untoward occurs.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the operation was executed as I have testified here. We were four or we were five persons and the expectation was that there would be one or two terrorists. If there were four we could have handled that as well.

MR LAX: Mr du Preez, just building on Mr Wills' point and it's been worrying me as well, particularly in the light of Mr Wasserman's testimony in the Quarry Road matter, you guys weren't armed with assault rifles and in the Quarry Road matter he was saying they would never have gone in there if the intention had been to arrest, as your intention was in this instance, with a vehicle full of people.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it would not have been a vehicle full. C1 members could also assist if there was an arrest to be executed.

MR LAX: The question is, how many C1 members were there present? How were they organised? What was your back-up plan? What fire power did they have, if this is a case where you are arresting potentially dangerous people?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I never doubted the fact that we were enough people to handle the situation.

MR WILLS: Well, I just put it to you that the way you've described the arrest appears to me to be more fitting for the arrest of one person, i.e. the planned arrest of Nthombi Khubeka and not other ANC persons as has been testified.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not so, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, did you indicate that Ms Khubeka struggled at all during the process of her arrest?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, she was grabbed, she was lifted off her feet and taken to the kombi and this was accompanied by the necessary violence to keep her under control.

MR WILLS: My question was, did she struggle? Did she try and run away? Did she try and resist arrest in any way? You were holding her, you would know that.

MR DU PREEZ: Not that I can recall. She was taken violently to the kombi.

MR WILLS: What do you mean by violently?

MR DU PREEZ: Against her will. She was picked up.

CHAIRPERSON: ...recall her thrashing her arms about or trying to kick you or anything like that?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson. She also did not shout.

MR WILLS: So you'd be surprised if she got injured in any way in the process of her arrest and in her transportation to the Winkelspruit shooting range?

MR DU PREEZ: I don't know of any injuries that she may have had, I don't believe that she had any injuries.

MR WILLS: And you don't believe she would have been injured in the process of your arresting her and you carrying her to the car?

MR DU PREEZ: That is improbable.

MR WILLS: So if it was later proved that she did in fact have broken ribs, you would say that that must have occurred after you handed her over, in your words, to Capt Botha?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, just describe the interior of the panel van. Was it a Toyota Hi Ace, a kombi type panel van or a Venture type panel van?

MR DU PREEZ: It was a Toyota panel van, such as a Post Office bus. It was a bus which was very empty, completely empty at the back with a wooden floor covered in carpeting.

MR WILLS: It's basically like a Toyota minibus but without the windows and seats?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: A quite common vehicle.

MR DU PREEZ: That would be the same type of vehicle.

MR WILLS: Like a taxi, minibus taxi?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, except that it wouldn't have windows on the sides.

MR WILLS: And Ms Khubeka was placed on the floor of this?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And you restrained her?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: How did you restrain her?

MR DU PREEZ: She was told to lie still and we told her that we were the police.

MR WILLS: Yes. Did you not have to physically restrain her in any way?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, after she was in the vehicle, she didn't put up any fight, she accepted that she had been arrested or that she was under our custody.

MR WILLS: Yes and who else, if you can recall, came with you in the kombi?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall Chairperson, but it must have been van der Westhuizen, Boshoff and Botha.

CHAIRPERSON: You say Boshoff, is that Basson or Boshoff?

MR DU PREEZ: I beg your pardon, it is Basson.

MR WILLS: Why do you use the phrase "must have been"?

MR DU PREEZ: Because all of us arrived there in that vehicle.

MR WILLS: But earlier on in your evidence you weren't sure, are you now sure?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall any other vehicle.

MR WILLS: No, but we know that the vehicle that Ms Khubeka was transported to Battery Beach also went back to Winkelspruit later on. Who travelled in that vehicle? We would assume Mbane would be one of the people.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Who else?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot even recall that they returned.

MR WILLS: ...there the whole day?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall seeing them again.

MR WILLS: But in short, you're not positive as to who was in the vehicle with you?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson it was me, Botha, van der Westhuizen and Basson and I think that there was another member of C1 but I don't know who he was.

MR WILLS: Where were they sitting?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall who sat where or who drove the vehicle. I can recall that I sat in the back of the vehicle with Nthombi.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, in that vehicle, how many people can sit where the driver sits, including the driver. You get the driver and then, is it a bench seat, or is it room for only one other person in the front?

MR DU PREEZ: There is room for three people to sit in front.

MR WILLS: Was anyone behind with you?

MR DU PREEZ: There were other people in the back with me.

MR WILLS: Can you remember how many people were sitting in the front and how many people were in the back?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that.

MR WILLS: So how can you be sure that these people were in fact with you in the car?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, there were others in the back of the vehicle with me and there was the person driving the vehicle, but I cannot recall who it was who drove the vehicle and who sat in the back with me.

MR WILLS: So in other words you don't know who was in the vehicle? You're making assumptions post facto.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the persons who were with me in the vehicle were van der Westhuizen, Botha, Basson and I cannot recall who the C1 member was.

MR WILLS: Now, if it wasn't your intention to arrest Khubeka, why didn't you just take her and detain her and put her through the normal police processes?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, she would be interrogated about the terrorists whom she knew about.

MR LAX: That still doesn't change the question. You could have still questioned her. Why take her to the shooting range? Why not question her at C R Swart in the normal course of a Section 29 detention, which you would have been perfectly entitled to use?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, she would probably have been taken to C R Swart later for detention.

MR LAX: The question is why take her to the shooting range?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, that is the point from where we operated and that is where we were going to interrogate her?

MR WILLS: I'm asking you why did you take her there?

MR DU PREEZ: To interrogate her.

MR WILLS: Why do you take her to a place that is hidden from all the other people, and hidden from where she's essentially denied all of her rights? What was the reason for that? You took her to a secret hide-out where you conducted these activities, why was that?

MR DU PREEZ: To interrogate her.

MR WILLS: Why couldn't you just take her to the normal police station and interrogate her in the cells at C R Swart? Book her in like a normal arrest. Why was there the need to take her to this other place? Can I help you?

MR DU PREEZ: It was to interrogate her.

MR WILLS: Isn't it because you wanted to beat the living daylights out of her, without anybody else finding out?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: I put it to you it was.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not correct.

MR WILLS: Well, can you give me another reason as to why she wasn't taken to the police station?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the reason why we took her there was to interrogate her. That was the premises from where we operated at that stage.

MR LAX: Sorry, at that time, I can't recall, was there any state of emergency prevailing?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall.

MR LAX: Just - my recollection is that there was. I wouldn't know the specific date but 1987, middle of that year there was definitely a state of emergency on the go.

MR VISSER: You can accept that there was, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson. How did you expect that she was going to be interrogated?

MR DU PREEZ: I accepted that Botha and Taylor would interrogate her.

MR WILLS: Yes. What methods did you expect that they were going to use?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I didn't have any preconceived ideas.

MR WILLS: What methods were usually used? Is it that you sat down and had a cup of tea and said: "Mrs Khubeka, nice to meet you. We've heard about your family in Lusaka. How are they doing now? Please tell us about what's going on."

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, such discussions did take place. There were such interrogations.

MR WILLS: I put it to you, you would have foreseen the likelihood that she would have been assaulted in that interrogation.

MR DU PREEZ: Not necessarily. If a person co-operated he or she would not be assaulted.

CHAIRPERSON: But you see, the impression I got from Mr Botha's evidence was, he said that while she was being interrogated, she was being beaten by Col Taylor and as far as he was concerned, Taylor was beating her not because she was not co-operating but just to stress the seriousness of the occasion to her. In other words, it was a sort of gratuitous type of beating, it wasn't done with the intention to get her to talk, that was the impression that Mr Botha said that he had. She was being beaten from time to time by Taylor, just to stress the seriousness of it.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I would not be able to comment on that. During my time when I interrogated people, I cannot think that I would have assaulted someone if he or she had co-operated.

MR WILLS: Yes, but from your answer you say that on the one hand, had she not co-operated, she would have been beaten. You would have expected that?

MR DU PREEZ: That was a possibility.

MR WILLS: Let's not beat around the bush with respect.

MR VISSER: Well, Mr Chairman, what's wrong with the answer? Who's beating around the bush?

CHAIRPERSON: He's cross-examining, he can persist with his line I think.

MR VISSER: But Mr Chairman, there's no reason to be discourteous to the witness.

MR WILLS: That wasn't my intention, with respect, Mr Visser and if it was I apologise, if I am being discourteous. I'm trying to get to the truth of this matter. Was it not a probability that she would be beaten, if she wasn't co-operative? It's not a possibility, it's a probability?

MR DU PREEZ: Mr Chairperson, I cannot testify now about things during which I was not present. I don't know what the circumstances were surrounding this entire interrogation, therefore it is difficult for me to give you an answer regarding this.

MR WILLS: You testified that if she co-operated, she wouldn't be beaten and if she did ...

MR DU PREEZ: That is what I believed and that is what I still believe.

MR WILLS: Yes. My question is that it seems to me likely that if somebody doesn't co-operate, then the chances are they're going to receive a bit of a hiding in order to get them to co-operate.

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: So in that regard, you must have at least foreseen the possibility of her being assaulted when she was taken for interrogation?

MR DU PREEZ: There was a possibility that she could have been assaulted.

MR WILLS: And you knew that at the time you arrested her and you were, as you were taking her to this torture chamber.

MR DU PREEZ: It did not occur to me.

MR WILLS: What occurred to you? What did you think was going to happen to her?

MR DU PREEZ: I knew that she would be interrogated.

MR WILLS: And that the possibility was that she would be assaulted during that interrogation?

MR DU PREEZ: That was a possibility.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see any sjambok at all in the office or in the room where it was?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Did you see a length of black piping in that room?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Did you go into the room prior to her interrogation commencing?

MR DU PREEZ: I was in that room previously, but upon my arrival at the premises, I did not enter the room.

MR WILLS: Where was Mr Taylor when you arrived?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall. I cannot recall whether he stood outside or where it was that I met him.

MR WILLS: So your evidence is to the effect that you - sorry I withdraw that question. You'd been out, one must imagine for some hours, away from that place that day prior to you returning with Khubeka?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: So you cannot say what was or wasn't in that room, or what had been brought into that room in the intervening period?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Did you go into the room at all during the interrogation?

MR DU PREEZ: I was never present during the interrogation.

MR WILLS: Was there any particular reason for that?

MR DU PREEZ: Shortly after I arrived and delivered the person, as I have stated, I departed. It would seem as if you're uncertain as to the reason why you departed, or am I mistaken? Why did you depart?

MR DU PREEZ: I went to deal with other duties and also to buy food.

MR WILLS: What food did you buy?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall.

MR WILLS: Did you buy food for the detainee?

MR DU PREEZ: I assume so.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say you went to buy food, were you going to buy food for everyone who was sleeping, for all the C1 members, was this a - or were you just getting take-always?

MR DU PREEZ: I assume that it was take-away meals, food for those people who were there, or those who wanted food.

MR LAX: But Mr du Preez, that would have entailed you knowing how many people to buy for, what each one might want. It would be something that you would have taken specific instructions on, you wouldn't have just gone to buy a "klomp wegneemetes", as one would put it, you would have known.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, in this specific case, I cannot recall precisely what I bought, but usually we would buy Kentucky or if there were 10 persons, it would be 10 hamburgers. So I cannot recall specifically what I bought.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go alone when you went for the food, or did you go with somebody?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall.

MR LAX: Sorry, just while we're on this thing, you went to go and do other duties you say, in your summary of your evidence here, the written summary. I have canvassed this with you already a little bit, yet you can't remember what those other duties are. Have I understood you correctly?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct.

MR LAX: Well if you can't remember what those other duties are, how can you remember at all that you even went to do other duties?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the reason why I recall is because I was away from the place and when I returned, upon my arrival there Botha informed me that Khubeka had died and I was very surprised about it and the reason why I say this, that I know that I was away, is because I arrived back at the place and Botha informed me about Khubeka who had died.

MR LAX: ...one iota of a clue as to why you remember you went to do other duties. All you know is that you left the place and you came back, but you don't know what you did, you don't even know if you went to buy food, you don't even know if somebody else was with you or not, do you see my point? You don't remember what you did, so how can you be so sure you went to go and do other duties? That's the point I'm trying to understand. If you simply said, "I left, I don't know what I did and I came back" that would be find, I would accept your evidence, in that sense is would make sense to me, but now you insist that you went to do other duties and you can't explain what you did or give me a reason how you know those were other duties. Do you see my point?

MR DU PREEZ: I understand.

MR LAX: ...maybe.

MR DU PREEZ: No, Mr Chairperson, I cannot recall specifically what I went to do.

CHAIRPERSON: You might have gone home to your family.

MR DU PREEZ: With me it was an assumption that I went to do other things.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. My experience of the military is that the lower ranking persons are sent to do the menial tasks like collecting food and the commissioned officers, as you are, are to do the serious work. Isn't that usually the case?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So were you frequently asked to go and get food? I think you were a Lieutenant in those days?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct. There were not specific duties for specific persons and I did not regard it as inferior to go out to buy food or to perform any other duty.

MR WILLS: Now, you say it was dusk at the time you arrested the deceased? Then it would take, I would estimate, knowing where Winkelspruit is, probably half an hour to drive - was it dark when you arrived? We're looking at winter time, autumn/winter?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I recall that it was already far into dusk, or almost dark when we arrived at the place.

MR WILLS: Are you able to give a time? 6 o'clock, or 7 o'clock, or anything like that?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: How long were you away before you returned? How many hours, minutes, seconds?

MR DU PREEZ: I don't know, I cannot give you an exact time.

MR WILLS: Are you able to say whether it was more than an hour, or less than an hour?

MR DU PREEZ: I really cannot tell you.

MR WILLS: Now when you arrived there, who put the deceased into the torture chamber?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, who said it was a torture chamber?

CHAIRPERSON: It hasn't been referred to as a torture chamber, but I think it was referred to as a room or a storeroom.

MR WILLS: Possibly I can use the word interrogation, if that makes my learned friend feel more comfortable?

MR VISSER: The evidence was it was a storeroom into which she was taken, Mr Chairman, that was the evidence.

MR WILLS: The evidence is also it's a place where she was severely beaten and she died in.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well, let's just refer to it as a room, I think and we'll all understand that.

MR WILLS: Who placed Ms Khubeka in the room where she subsequently died?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall, Chairperson. I delivered Khubeka to Taylor and Botha was also present.

MR WILLS: ...remember how, if she was assisted to get out the car, or anything along that nature, out of the bus, sorry, the panel van?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot specifically recall that she was assisted, but she was blindfolded and she would have been picked up and brought out.

MR WILLS: You didn't do that?

MR DU PREEZ: I may have assisted with that.

MR WILLS: When you got back, you say, your evidence is seemingly not certain, you're not sure whether it was Taylor or Botha who informed you that she died.

MR DU PREEZ: It was Botha who told me that she had died.

MR WILLS: And what exactly did he say to you, to the best of your recollection?

MR DU PREEZ: He told me that Khubeka had died of a heart attack, or that she had had a heart attack and died.

MR WILLS: Did he tell you how long ago this had occurred?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Did you get an impression that it was just immediately before you arrived, or she'd been lying there dead for some hours, or minutes?

MR DU PREEZ: I did not formulate an opinion about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go and take a look at the body that is prior to the time that you say after you had waited and loaded it into the Skyline, did you go and take a look at it?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, I didn't go. I went into the room to fetch her when we loaded her into the vehicle to go and drop her off.

MR WILLS: I assume when you went into the room to collect her, you would have switched on a light in that room, her body that is?

MR DU PREEZ: There was a light in that room.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, did you switch it on when you went to fetch the body?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that. I cannot recall whether the light was on, or whether I switched it on.

CHAIRPERSON: But you can recall that it was on then, the light was on?

MR DU PREEZ: That is correct. I saw the person lying there.

MR WILLS: Whereabouts was the deceased lying in the room?

MR DU PREEZ: She lay in the room. I cannot say precisely what her position was, but when I entered the room she lay on her back in the room.

MR WILLS: She was lying on her back?

CHAIRPERSON: That's what he said. She was lying on her back.

MR WILLS: Are you certain about that?

MR DU PREEZ: As far as I can recall.

MR WILLS: And you went in with your colleague, I think it's Wasserman.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct.

MR WILLS: And how did you pick her up and put her into the boot of the Skyline?

MR DU PREEZ: Wasserman and I picked her up by her arms and also by her feet and then put her into the boot of the car.

MR WILLS: Who picked up her arms?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot say for certain.

MR WILLS: Did you notice anything in the room at the time you picked her up? Anything unusual?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, as far as I can recall the room was empty, there wasn't anything else in the room.

CHAIRPERSON: When you're saying empty, there was no furniture even, it was just four walls and a floor?

MR DU PREEZ: As far as I can recall. I cannot recall whether this was on that day or at a later stage, there were

INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon Chairperson, I couldn't hear the witness when he states what was in the room?

MR DU PREEZ: There were shooting targets in the room.

MR WILLS: Was there urine on the floor?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, as far as I can recall it was wet, the body of the deceased was wet and I also believe that water had been poured on her, because there was water on the floor.

MR WILLS: Was there blood on the floor?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Why are you so sure of that?

MR DU PREEZ: Because I would have seen blood if there had been blood.

MR WILLS: Would have you seen marks on her body?

MR DU PREEZ: I did not disrobe her, she was clothed.

MR WILLS: Can you remember what clothes were there?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall.

MR WILLS: Can you remember if it was a jersey?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall.

MR WILLS: One would imagine that had she been beaten as described by the previous witness, that she'd have marks on her arms and her back. Not so?

MR DU PREEZ: I didn't notice that. I didn't see any marks which fixed my attention on the fact that she had been assaulted or struck.

MR WILLS: Yes, but what I'm trying to suggest is that you would have noticed if she had bare arms and there were marks on her arms, you would have noticed them.

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson. Dark person's would not mark the same way that lighter persons would. I cannot recall that I saw any marks on her and I did not inspect her specifically for any marks.

MR WILLS: If her arms were bare and there were bruises on her arms from a sjambok, is it likely that in the circumstances of you picking her up that you would have noticed those bruises?

MR DU PREEZ: She was hit hard on numerous occasions with a sjambok and the evidence is that she tried to fend off the blows with her arms. What I'm suggesting is that you would have noticed it, had her arms been bare.

CHAIRPERSON: I think perhaps maybe wheel marks, because I don't know how long it takes a bruise to form and I don't know if a bruise can form after a person has died, but perhaps if you could ask about wheel marks.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I did not see any of those marks.

MR WILLS: My point is slightly different. You see, the evidence is that she was wearing a long-sleeved sweater and what I'm trying to get out of you is that had she been, had she not, sorry let me rephrase completely. Our evidence will be that at the time she was wearing a long-sleeved sweater and I'm suggesting to you that had she been wearing a garment that didn't cover her arms, and had she been assaulted in the manner that has been previously described, you as an experienced policeman would have noticed bruises on her arms, so the implication is that the possibilities are good that she'd been wearing something that covered those marks?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot remember anything like that, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, did you clean up the room afterwards?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Singular, now or in the plural again?

MR WILLS: Thank you. Were you involved personally in the clean-up of the room?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Do you know who was?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

MR WILLS: When you got back in the morning at sunset, did you never establish that or were you never tasked to do that?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that I went back to that room.

MR WILLS: Was there a domestic servant employed there at any stage?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: So one of the persons present would have obviously had to do some cleaning up, even if it's just to wipe up the urine and the water?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct Chairperson, but I was not involved in that.

MR WILLS: Who do you think would have been involved in that, with your knowledge of the operation?

MR DU PREEZ: I don't know, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Was this not a menial task left to askaris?

MR DU PREEZ: I would not be able to say, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Did you do a thorough inspection of the room when you were removing the body?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, my attention was drawn to the body when I went into the room.

MR WILLS: So there is a possibility that other objects might have been in the room which escaped your attention?

MR DU PREEZ: It's possible, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Can you describe, your evidence to this effect confused me. Can you describe to the best of your recollection exactly what order you received after being involved in the discussion with Col Taylor and Mr Botha as regards disposing of the body?

MR DU PREEZ: What discussion followed?

MR WILLS: No, what order you received. I think it's common cause that you received an order to dispose of the body. I'm wanting to know exactly what the content of that order was.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the instruction was that we would dispose of the body in a place close to her home.

MR WILLS: So why did you choose the place where you dumped the body?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it was an open field. It was a quiet place, there were no houses in the vicinity, so the possibility of us being seen was remote.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr du Preez, were you told why it should be, or did you know why it should be close to the home? Were you told to hide the body that it never be found again, or was there anything, any instruction given to you in any more detail other than, dispose of the body near the home?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, it was said we have to drop her off at a point where people would find her, where she would be found and she could be identified.

MR WILLS: So why did you drop her off in a quiet place?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, that is a place where many taxis pass during the day so at that time during the night it was a quiet place, but during the day it's a very busy place.

MR WILLS: Would you be able to point out to us exactly where this place is today?

MR DU PREEZ: I would be able to.

MR WILLS: Now, I'm sure Mr Visser will correct me if I'm wrong, but my recollection is that Wasserman was involved in the interrogation, do you recall the evidence whilst you've been listening here?

MR DU PREEZ: I saw by means of the statements that Wasserman was involved in the interrogation.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, yes, he was present during the interrogation.

MR WILLS: Now no doubt as you were surprised that this death had occurred, you would have discussed the circumstances surrounding this death when you were driving with him to dispose of the body. I want to know what was said then.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, Capt Botha had already informed me that the person had died of a heart attack.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, when you and Mr Wasserman were now driving off with the body, did you not discuss the circumstances of the death, didn't you say "What did you see? What happened?" Wouldn't it have been a natural thing for you to have talked about?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that we discussed it, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Surely you would have been a little bit curious to know how it was that she came to have a heart attack? It's one thing to be told yes, she had a heart attack, but surely your curiosity would have at least piqued some discussion.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I cannot recall at all that Wasserman told me anything about the assault. I heard about the assault only afterwards.

MR LAX: I'm not asking you about the assault. I'm not saying anything about assault. I'm saying surely your inquisitiveness, your curiosity, just as an ordinary person, would have been, how did this woman come to have a heart attack? And if you knew that Mr Wasserman was present, as you would have known at the time, you would have said to him , "Well Lawrie tell me what happened, this is a bizarre situation."

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, they had already told me how the heart attack had taken place.

MR LAX: So you already knew all that.

MR DU PREEZ: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Did you and Wasserman talk about anything in the car?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I think we discussed or where we spoke about where we would dispose of the body and we drove looking for a suitable place.

MR WILLS: And who decided amongst you, where the body would be disposed?

MR DU PREEZ: As far as I can recall Chairperson, we drove in the direction of kwaMashu and we passed kwaMashu and we said, I cannot recall whether Wasserman or I decided, but we decided that this was as good a place as any and we will drop it off there.

MR WILLS: And tell me, how did you get the body out of the car, in detail?

MR DU PREEZ: We pulled the vehicle off the road and we waited to see if everything was quiet and whether there were any persons walking around on the road or whether vehicles were approaching and then we took her out of the boot and carried her for about 10 metres into the field.

MR WILLS: Was the car on the side of the road or was the car partially in the bush?

MR DU PREEZ: It was off the road completely.

MR WILLS: And how did you carry the deceased?

MR DU PREEZ: We used the same method, under her arms and by her feet and carried her.

MR WILLS: You can't remember whether you were carrying her legs?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Do you remember if she had shoes on?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall, I assume she was fully clothed.

MR WILLS: Did you notice whether or not she had a ring?

MR DU PREEZ: I didn't see that Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Did you notice whether or not she had panties on?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: When you drove back, what did you talk about in the car?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I cannot remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you sleep at the shooting range that night?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson, I think we only returned early the next morning.

MR LAX: So where did you go to in the intervening period?

MR DU PREEZ: I think we spent the evening at our homes.

MR LAX: So after dumping the body off, what did you then do and what did Wasserman then do? Who dropped who off? Where?

MR DU PREEZ: I think Wasserman dropped me at my home and then he left and then he picked me up the following morning and we went back to the shooting range.

ADV BOSMAN: You said that it was your vehicle. Was it the usual that you exchange the car?

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: When you were dumping this body what was going through your mind? Didn't you think you were doing something wrong?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, it was a very unpleasant task.

MR WILLS: Did you feel any sympathy for the deceased?

MR DU PREEZ: Yes, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Now, why was it to the best of your recollection, why was it decided that the deceased's body should be dumped close to her home? You said you were part of - you didn't participate in the discussion, but you were present when Botha and Taylor were deciding what to do with the body.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson. It was their decision.

MR WILLS: Yes, but why? What was the reasoning? I'm wanting to know, you heard that discussion.

MR DU PREEZ: So that her body could be found.

MR WILLS: Why was that necessary?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, we couldn't anything with the body.

MR WILLS: No, but why didn't you just dump it somewhere else? I mean there must have been some purpose for dumping it close to her home as opposed to just dumping it in the Tugela River, or dumping it in the Umzimkulu River, I'm wanting to know what the reason was.

CHAIRPERSON: Or seeing that the cause of death was a heart attack, leaving it on a park bench somewhere?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, that was Botha and Taylor's decision.

MR WILLS: Look, I'm asking you, with respect Mr du Preez, you said and your evidence was that there was this discussion that went on between Botha and Taylor and you were present while this discussion was going on, I'm asking you what were the reasons for that discussion? Why was it decided that she was dumped in this particular way?

MR DU PREEZ: The idea was that she would be found and that the family would identify her and that she would have a normal burial.

MR WILLS: So you're wanting us to believe that the purpose was so that her family would know that she was dead?

MR DU PREEZ: So that she would be found and she would be identified by people in her area.

MR WILLS: But I can't understand because that seems out of sync with the other matters that I've been involved in here in the sense that why was it necessary that you wanted the family to know about her death?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, as I've already said it was Botha and Taylor's decision. I cannot help if it is out of sync with any other things that had taken place.

MR WILLS: You see, it would seem to me that in line with your intention to distance yourselves from her arrest in any way, that it would be a safer option to dispose of the body in such a way that nobody would ever identify her and that it would be better for example that the story that she had gone to Mozambique would be the one that was circulating because then your operation wouldn't stand any chance of being compromised, not so?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I think it was brought about by the fact that she had died of natural causes.

MR WILLS: No, with respect, that doesn't gel. It is clear that had her body been found, the wounds from her assault would have been apparent to anybody doing an immediate inspection, not so?

MR DU PREEZ: Most probably sjambok bruises would be found on her but it would not have caused the death of her.

MR WILLS: No, I know that. But had a pathologist or a district surgeon found that she'd been sjamboked, that would have raised suspicion, it wouldn't have appeared to him that she had died of natural causes, it would have looked as if she'd been beaten to death. Maybe a murder docket might have been opened.

MR DU PREEZ: It is possible, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: Well, it's more likely, with respect, but anyway, I put it to you that you are lying when you say that you wanted to dump the body in such a way that she'd be recognised, or that it would be found out by her family that she had died.

MR DU PREEZ: That isn't so, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: I put it to you that you intended to arrest her on that day, that you intended to torture her and to get information out of her and whether or not she died, was irrelevant to you.

MR DU PREEZ: That is not so, Chairperson.

MR WILLS: I put it to you that her death was expected by you and all the others there and that this would fit in nicely to cover up your operation so it wasn't exposed.

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, it was not so.

MR WILLS: And I put it to you that despite the fact that you have an obligation, if you want amnesty, to come and tell the truth and to disclose everything here, that you have not done so.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I have told the truth.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills. Ms Thabethe any questions?

MS THABETHE: No questions Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, do you have any re-examination?

MR VISSER: Just one question, Chairperson

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Approximately how far, or first of all, do you know where Mrs Khubeka lived before her death?

MR DU PREEZ: She lived in G Section.

MR VISSER: I ask, do you know where her house was?

MR DU PREEZ: Yes, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And from her house to the place where you left her as the crow flies, would you estimate a distance?

MR DU PREEZ: I would say two to three kilometres. Three kilometres, yes.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser. Adv Bosman, any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr du Preez, there are two statements in your statement which are contradictory to me. It may have been cleared up and your legal representative must point that out to me but you see, you refer in paragraph 7 that an appointment was made on a day that the leader of the group of terrorists whom Khubeka was housing was to be arrested and the later you say, let me just find the correct paragraph, paragraph 9, towards the end: "We arrested her" and then in paragraph 17, the second line, let me read the whole line to you

"My motivation to execute the instructions of Col Botha by abducting Khubeka..."

Do you see that? Do you agree with me that it would seem contradictory?

MR DU PREEZ: It is contradictory, Chairperson and this was said afterwards because we knew that she was arrested.

ADV BOSMAN: But when did you receive the instruction to abduct her, because there you specifically refer to the instruction to abduct her?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, after her arrest she was necessarily abducted, or she was taken to the area and I see that as an abduction.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, I'm interrupting you, but maybe it's, on paragraph 17 I think, while Maj du Preez was giving evidence, it was amended to read "instructions from Colonels Botha and Taylor", I got that added in on my copy, I don't know. Carry on.

ADV BOSMAN: No, my problem is the "opdrag om te ontvoer".

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because I got the impression that the "opdrag te ontvoer" came at the scene, at Battery Beach after the arrest from Botha but it's Taylor and Botha.

ADV BOSMAN: In other words at some stage you said that you expected her, possibly for her to be there, there was a possibility, so were you under the impression that this was to be a lawful arrest, but then afterwards you found out that your instruction was to abduct her? I want to get clarity about this, I do not want to trap you.

MR DU PREEZ: That is so Chairperson, that afterwards I saw that it was an unlawful arrest.

ADV BOSMAN: And then Mr du Preez, the interrogation of women, did this, was this executed differently to the interrogation of men and I speak of interrogation where violence or coercion was used.

MR DU PREEZ: Not necessarily Chairperson, where terrorists were involved, women were not treated any different.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't refer to preference, but wouldn't you use another version of another form of violence, because a woman is physically weaker. The reason why I asked this is because in a number of matters where I have listened to evidence, I have never before heard of the sjambok method in evidence. To me it is somewhat strange that a sjambok was used here.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, for me too. I have never been present where a person was assaulted with a sjambok while the person was interrogated.

ADV BOSMAN: Did anybody make a remark about this while you are saying that, while you are conceding that it is strange?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, nobody told me anything about this.

ADV BOSMAN: And you also don't know whose sjambok it was?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Then the disposal of the corpse. I cannot recall that you testified whether there was a specific reason given to you why you had to dispose of the body in the circumstances where somebody had died of natural causes. My impression was, from your evidence, was that you accepted that you had to dispose of the body and that you had just drawn inferences as to where you had to drop off the body. I want to just ascertain, did anybody state a reason to you why you had to dispose of the body and who?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, from Botha and Taylor's discussion, I drew the inference that the person had to be left there so that she could be found.

ADV BOSMAN: You have been asked as to why the idea was that she was supposed to be found. If she was found shortly after the body was disposed of there, would it have come to your knowledge?

MR DU PREEZ: Not automatically Chairperson. I never inquired about it.

ADV BOSMAN: That is what is somewhat strange to me, that some people would, that one would expect that if a person, if a body is disposed of and dropped off somewhere and it was found and you never hear that the body was found and one would want to ascertain if the information didn't come about and one would do some research. Why was no research or inquiries ever made?

MR DU PREEZ: It might have pointed fingers to us, Chairperson, if we went and inquired at the police station and then persons would ask, "Why are you inquiring?".

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, I think that would be the obvious answer, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR LAX: Thanks Chair. If I could just immediately follow up on what Adv Bosman's put. Is it not so that you could have asked questions in a way that didn't point fingers at you at all? If, for example, a known terrorist co-ordinator's gone missing, you're looking for her.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, there were possible methods, but we did not do it.

MR LAX: You could also have, through your informer network, asked questions. You didn't do that either?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson. An informant would have created the idea that I had killed the person.

MR LAX: Why would it do that? You already had informers who were telling you about her activities. If she suddenly went missing, the most logical thing to do and for them to assume, would be to say "Where's this woman disappeared to?" Why would that point to you killing her?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I know that Capt Botha gave the askaris instructions to do some inquiries. I don't know specifically what the inquiries were that they did, but I know that they inquired afterwards.

ADV BOSMAN: I have to interrupt my colleague, somewhat. Did you have access to the registers in the mortuary, for example, in the state mortuary?

MR DU PREEZ: I could have gone there and inquired there.

ADV BOSMAN: You would not necessarily inquire there, you would have consulted the registers, wouldn't you?

MR DU PREEZ: A person at the state mortuary would have asked me what was the reason for my visit.

MR LAX: With respect, Lieutenant, sorry Major, if a Lieutenant arrives at the mortuary asking just to look at the registers, you could have given anybody any reason under the son, to just check through the mortuary's registers. It wouldn't really have pointed in any way at you. You're looking for missing suspects, you're looking for missing informers. You're looking for all sorts of possibilities. Surely that's ...

MR DU PREEZ: That is true Chairperson, but I did not do it and this unfortunate incident was placed behind me.

MR LAX: You see, that's the answer that I would have expected from you. The one you've just given is the one I would have thought the most likely answer. You put this thing behind you, you didn't think about it again. You weren't worried about anyone pointing - any fingers pointing in your direction at all. The fact of the matter is, you didn't think about it again, you put it behind you.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Now, the place where you dropped the body off, where you off loaded the body, you've said to us that it was a busy place during the day. There were taxis there and there were other ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He said it was on a taxi route. I didn't get the impression that it was a taxi rank, yes.

MR LAX: I'm just trying to understand what you mean by it.

MR DU PREEZ: It was the Inanda highway.

MR LAX: Capt Botha gave us to understand that there were people that walked past this spot, or maybe you did, maybe I'm getting confused.

MR DU PREEZ: During the day, yes.

MR LAX: And where would these people be walking to or from as a matter of course?

MR DU PREEZ: From Inanda in the direction of the city or to kwaMashu.

MR LAX: Of from Ghandi Settlement or from all the other places round there?

MR DU PREEZ: Correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: So it wasn't an isolated spot?

MR DU PREEZ: No, it was not.

MR LAX: Because you were asked a question whether there were any buildings around there and you said no, there were no buildings in that vicinity.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Were there not shacks and things in that vicinity, in the area, or within reasonable close distance of that area?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, in later years it was built, but at that stage it was an open field.

MR LAX: Now ...

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Lax, while you're just on that. Could you give an approximation about how far the nearest building was from the place where the body was dumped. Are we talking a matter of 10 metres or half a kilometre, what ...(indistinct - talking simultaneously)

MR DU PREEZ: I would say 300 or 400 metres.

MR LAX: One thing puzzles me here about the arrest of this lady and at the point which you people arrested her at Battery Beach, did you, you didn't give the impression that you were arresting Mbane or any of the others who were with her?

MR DU PREEZ: No Chairperson, not that I can recall.

MR LAX: Why not?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, the manner in which she was taken, she would also not have known what was going on. I cannot recall that we tried to create the impression that we also arrested them. This person was arrested in such a manner that she must have been, or she was only aware of her own arrest.

MR LAX: With the greatest of respect, if the others were not arrested contemporaneously, or at least an effort made to give that impression, she would immediately know that she had been sold out by them, or that they were participating in her abduction or her arrest. That's pretty obvious, isn't it.

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I did not think that. She may have possibly thought that. My opinion was not that she would know.

MR LAX: The reason I ask this question is that in the Ndaba matter where a similar situation happened, you were at pains in that matter to try and give the impression that Ndaba was being arrested as well. It just doesn't make sense to me that you would risk your own operative in that way.

ADV BOSMAN: In this specific instance you have already said there was suspicion that she was being sold out.

MR DU PREEZ: That the manner in which we arrested her, she would not have necessarily known that Mbane was not being arrested.

MR LAX: Now, I'm still not clear. I asked Botha this yesterday and I'm going to ask this of you today and the impression I got from him yesterday was that you helped get her out of the car but on your version you clearly didn't. How did - because you only grabbed her once she was out the car, how did she, who got her out of the car?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall, Chairperson. I recall that I grabbed her when she was outside the car.

MR LAX: So you don't know if Radebe or Mbane or somebody else forced her out of the car?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall, Chairperson.

MR LAX: And you don't know if she struggled in the car, till somebody managed to get her out of the car?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR LAX: You see, because the impression I got of your earlier evidence was that she did struggle earlier but not after you'd got hold of her and put her in the car. That's how the wording came about. That was the impression that was created from your answer, because there was no struggle after that point, but there was a struggle before. That was the impression I got.

MR DU PREEZ: Not that I can recall, Chairperson.

MR LAX: I'll be quick, I'm nearly finished.

CHAIRPERSON: Just perhaps while you're considering if I could just ask, did Ms Khubeka have any personal belongings other than the clothing she was wearing, a purse, a handbag, moon bag, whatever?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall anything like that, Chairperson, that she had a bag with her. My recollection is that she didn't have anything with her.

CHAIRPERSON: The place where the body was dumped, you said it was in an open field, was there long grass there?

MR DU PREEZ: There was grass.

CHAIRPERSON: But not like a soccer field, but long grass. What I want to know, if somebody was driving past during the day, would they see the body lying in the grass or would it be obscured because the grass was too long?

MR DU PREEZ: One would not be able to see it just from the road, one would have to go into the field to see it. The grass was long.

CHAIRPERSON: And the place where the body was, the ground, was it flat or was there ditches there, holes?

MR DU PREEZ: It was flat, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax.

MR LAX: Sorry, Chair, you've covered the aspect I was going to, that was to do with any of her possessions. Just- you don't know whether any of her possessions remained in the vehicle, the Corolla?

MR DU PREEZ: It's possible, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Visser, do you have any questions arising?

MR VISSER: No thank you Mr Chairman.

MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, sorry there's one small issue that doesn't arise from your questioning that I forgot to ask. I'll be very quick.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Sorry, you described the size of the deceased as being large. As regards her height, what would you estimate her height to be? Was she short?

MR DU PREEZ: I think she was of average height.

MR WILLS: Well, can I just ask Ms Masetla to stand up please? Now, can you estimate her height in relation to Ms Masetla? Is she a similar size? Our evidence is to the effect that she was a similar height, specifically height, to Ms Masetla, Mrs Masetla, sorry.

MR DU PREEZ: It's possible, Chairperson. The impression that I had was that she was a very large woman and she was very heavy. Her height, I would say approximately the same height or maybe taller.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mrs Masetla. The evidence of the family will be that she was a particularly short woman of similar height to Mrs Masetla, although she was quite large. Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

MR VISSER: Can we now know how tall Ms Masetla is, otherwise the whole exercise is meaningless.

CHAIRPERSON: I was going to ask, does Mrs Masetla have any idea as to what her own height is?

MR WILLS: 1.58 seems to be coming from the gallery.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that right, Mrs Masetla? 1.58 you would agree with? Yes. Mr Visser do you have any questions arising?

MR VISSER: No thank you Mr Chairman. Perhaps we can ascertain the exact length of Mrs Masetla.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Nel,

MR NEL: I have no questions, Mr chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Botha?

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS BOTHA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel?

MR SAMUEL: I see it's now lunch time, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I think if we could just finish questions arising, it shouldn't take too long. It's only on matters arising and then we'll take the lunch adjournment, instead of ...

MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman. There was just something that I didn't put to this witness.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL: Major, according to Mr Mbane, when the body was removed from the room, Mr Myeza also assisted in removing that body. Do you recall that?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: Now on a question from Adv Bosman very early in your cross-examination, she asked you whether you knew that Ms Khubeka was becoming suspicious and your response was that you cannot recall. Do you remember that? Do you remember your response to that question?

MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall my answer but I did not question the people, I did not question Mbane and the others. What I heard, from what they reported to Botha, I heard from Botha and I may just add that I cannot recall that it was specifically said that she had become suspicious.

MR SAMUEL: Is it possible then Sir that this information was passed to Mr Botha and you don't recall it? It's not that it never occurred?

MR DU PREEZ: It's possible.

MR SAMUEL: A question was put to Mr Botha and I'd like to put this same question to you. What would have happened if Ms Khubeka did not co-operate with you all and if she had not suffered a heart attack, an alleged heart attack, what would you all have done to her?

MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, she would probably have been detained to question her.

MR SAMUEL: Yes, you finished questioning her, she hasn't co-operated at all, what would have happened to her?

MR DU PREEZ: She would have been detained.

MR SAMUEL: Indefinitely?

MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson. There were sections for such cases, Section 29.

MR SAMUEL: So you would have used Section 29, despite the fact that she knew the askaris now? She knew that she'd been sold out. She knew that she was abducted and she also knew your secret hide-out, are you saying that you would have just invoked Section 29 in detaining her?

MR DU PREEZ: It was a possibility. It was also a possibility of releasing her.

MR SAMUEL: Did you go to Ms Khubeka's house at any stage prior to this?

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the questions arising, or what, Mr Samuel? You've been given an opportunity to cross-examine?

MR SAMUEL: Sorry, this question did arise, it's a question arising from cross-examination. Did you go to her house? You told us you knew the address in the section where she lived in.

MR DU PREEZ: That's correct.

MR SAMUEL: Did you go to her house?

MR DU PREEZ: Before or after the time?

MR SAMUEL: Before this. Before the incident.

MR DU PREEZ: Before this incident I was at her house, yes.

MR SAMUEL: And would I be correct in saying that you knew that the place where you disposed of the body, was far away from her house where people would not have recognised her. Is that correct?

MR DU PREEZ: That is not so, Chairperson.

MR SAMUEL: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: I have no further questions, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr du Preez, that concludes your evidence.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We'll now take the lunch adjournment and resume at say 2 o'clock.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, before this witness is released, I'd like to at least take the opportunity of arranging with my learned friend that he, after hours possibly, takes us to the scene where the body was dumped.

CHAIRPERSON: If you could, perhaps during the lunch interval, speak with Mr Wagener or Mr Visser in this regard.

MR VISSER: And I'm sure at the same time my learned friend will hand us some photographs which we've been after.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and I don't know if there is going to be an inspection. If it is, then maybe also the shooting range might be worthwhile visiting.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I'm not certain to what end all these inspections in loco are necessary but if they are one would imagine that the Committee would have to go along as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, this is what I was thinking, that's why I was saying, if you're discussing it, if there is going to be one, also include the shooting range. We'll take the lunch adjournment now until 2 o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Have you had an opportunity to discuss the possibility of going off on an inspection?

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson. Firstly on the photographs, I just want to place on record that the family have no problem in handing over photographs. The problem being is that the family homes are no longer in the kwaZulu Natal area and the family is employed in Pretoria and obviously Mr Khubeka is in Denmark, but we will endeavour to get those photographs as soon as possible and hand them over. We have no objection to do that. I have discussed with Mr Wagener the types of photographs he wants and we'll try and oblige in that regard.

As regards inspection, I think we've agreed that it's necessary. I think most parties around the table are in agreement with that. It's the timing that hasn't been resolved. We are of the view and when I say "we", myself and Mr Samuel are of the view that it would be better served if we did the inspection sooner rather than later in order that that would assist us in our cross-examination of the future witnesses. Also, it's my experience that the inspection is usually done at the beginning of trials fro that specific purpose.

CHAIRPERSON: Also, listening to the weather forecast last night, it seems that we might be getting rain in the not too distant future.

MR WILLS: I'm pleased to hear that. Mr Visser however is that he'd rather have his witnesses led and completed prior to us doing this inspection. Unfortunately we can't come to an agreement on that and so we leave that in your hands.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, two considerations. Well the first point is, I'm not entirely convinced in my own mind as far as that might be worth anything, that an inspection is essential, either of the one or the other spot, but by the same token, we have no objection. But Mr Chairman, there are two considerations why we would submit that the evidence should be heard before we go off on an inspection. The first is, it is not critical at this stage for the inspection to be held, as my learned friend has pointed out, for the trial to proceed smoothly and we believe it's proper, Mr Chairman, that an applicant should give his evidence first and that thereafter an inspection be held, so that his evidence can in that sense be tested. Mr Chairman, secondly, the applicants are here in their own interest, we are fully aware of that, but there are some of my applicants who are working for themselves. Mr van der Westhuizen is a contractor who is working in the Transkei, making roads, and in Dundee and Newcastle and he looses a lot of money by being here, so does Mr Botha and we would prefer to deal with the next two witnesses and thereafter Mr Chairman, we would be entirely in your hands as to when and how and if, you wish to conduct an inspection in loco. Those are our views.

CHAIRPERSON: Our view is - I think we would agree that an inspection in loco is not essential in the sense that if we didn't have one, we couldn't arrive at a decision in this matter, but I think it would be helpful to have one. Sorry Mr Visser, if we went on an inspection, wouldn't it be advisable that the applicants are also there?

MR VISSER: Yes, certainly. but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So this question about the timing is not all that important because whether it's now or later they'll be there to either agree or disagree on what is said.

MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson, if I may reply in this way - if the inspection is only going to take place next week, then I'm going to ask for some of the witnesses, of the applicants to be excused. I'm hoping that we can finish the last two witnesses and do this inspection this week still, Mr Chairman, but I don't want to, with respect, run the risk of the matter going over until a later date and one or more of the two witnesses not having given their evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, also another point raised in my brief discussion with my colleagues is...(end of tape) cut down on unnecessary questions regarding the locations.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I will leave the decision in your able hands.

CHAIRPERSON: And also another thing Mr Visser, I think we would be extremely fortunate if this matter finishes this week it would seem.

MR VISSER: We'll never finish this week.

CHAIRPERSON: This is what I'm saying. We won't in any event finish this week. I don't think there's any realistic prospect of that. We would prefer it if it was sooner rather than later. We don't want to be obstructive or anything of that nature, but I don't think the inspection will take too long. What about this afternoon?

MR VISSER: If you want to leave right now, Mr Chairman, we'll leave with you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't know how we're going to handle it logistically. I've got no idea which roads to take etc and whether we're going to go in different - how we're going to go, but perhaps it might be an idea to, before we start the next witness, to do it. We'll then take an adjournment and the go and do this inspection. I don't know if - we'll see how long it takes and we might have time to come back here and you say we won't - yes the trouble is it's in two different directions. Yes, perhaps then if we can adjourn and then just make arrangements on who's going and how. Yes, we had a brief meeting now. You will recall that I said we are now going off on an inspection in loco. We have, however been informed by the Commission, one of the Commission's logistics officers that it wouldn't be possible to have a proper inspection in loco at this time. They need a bit of time to prepare for it, you need batteries fro the cameras, transportation etc and after discussing the matter, it's been agreed that what we will do is we will meet here at half past 8 tomorrow morning and then we will proceed in the first instance to the shooting range in the Winkelspruit area and from there we'll then proceed to that Inanda road area that's been referred to. And also I've been informed that there will be a kombi available as well for any person who, member of the family, who wishes to come along. So we can then at this stage proceed with the evidence of the next witness.

MR VISSER: That will be Mr Lawrence Gerald Wasserman, Mr Chairman.