Amnesty Hearings

MR WILLS: ...[inaudible] that the case because I'm ready to proceed with Hlongwane if the Committee wishes?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] now to take a break. If we could start now and we will go through to four because if we take a break it will probably be too short to recommence.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, I call Mr Hlongwane.

MR HLONGWANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes Mr Wills?

EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Thank you. Mr Hlongwane, you are known by a number of names, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you start, it's just been pointed out to me his name is spelt differently on occasions in the record.

ADV MOTATA: If you have regard to page 127, it's spelt with an N-I and if you have regard to page 130, it's spelt with an N-E. We would want to know what is the correct spelling of his name, his surname rather.

MR WILLS: Possibly you can help us, how do you spell your surname Mr Hlongwane?

MR HLONGWANE: Which name?

CHAIRPERSON: Hlongwane. Has it got an E on the end or an I on the end?

MR HLONGWANE: It has an E.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Committee Member, that is my mistake, that is my handwriting on that application.

Mr Hlongwane, you are known by a number of names, is that not so? One of them for example is Sadam, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And you're also known as Njoni, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: You're also known as Hlelangla Langa, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, you made an application for amnesty which commences at page 127 of the record and you attached to that application form a lengthy affidavit which runs from page 130 to page 202 of the record. Do you confirm the contents of that affidavit?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And to the best of your knowledge and to the best of your recollection, are the averments contained therein correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: I want to turn now to page 130 of the record to commence your affidavit. You're a convicted ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think he has a copy of the affidavit before him Mr Wills. Yes, Mr Wills you can proceed.

MR WILLS: Thank you.

Have you got the front page of your affidavit, it's page 130?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: He's now getting swamped with affidavits.

MR WILLS: Okay, you've got that affidavit. Is it not correct that you are a convicted prisoner also being held in Westville Prison in KwaZulu Natal, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And is it also not your averment that you are or were an assassin working for the Inkatha Freedom Party, your mandate was to kill political opponents of the IFP?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Mr Hlongwane, you don't have to read everything. If I want you to read something in your affidavit I will refer you to it but if you want to refer to it on your behalf just indicate that to me. I'm not expecting you to read everything and I'm certainly not going to trick you with any questions of that nature. Just relax, listen to my questions and answer them.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I understand.

MR WILLS: Right. You say that - and now I do want to refer you to paragraph 3, that essentially you say there that this affidavit concerns a lot of information, that had you not given this information nobody would have known about it at any stage, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And that includes a great deal of information about matters which you haven't been charged for in any way whatsoever, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now I want to start on page 3 of your affidavit, page 132 of the record, paragraph 8, when you joined the IFP in Mpumalanga. You were born in 1968, you grew up in Mpumalanga and you just had a normal schooling and left school after standard six and at that stage you weren't very concerned with politics, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Would you please give Mr Hlongwane an opportunity to state his case so that if you do not understand please do not make your own noise because this interferes with our proceedings. We will try our best that Mr Hlongwane should speak a little louder so that everybody within the hall should hear him.

MR HLONGWANE: I will try.

MR WILLS: Okay. What political party did your parents belong to?

MR HLONGWANE: They were members of Inkatha here in ...[indistinct] eSizwe.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now you describe that your own entry into active politics occurred as a result of a person by the name of Stembiso Ndlovo who came to you and he wanted to know why Inkatha supporters were coming to your house, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Would you please repeat your question?

MR WILLS: You indicated that your entry into politics was as a result of an approach by one Stembiso Ndlovo who wanted to know why Incatha people were visiting your house in Mpumalanga.

MR HLONGWANE: They did not come to my house, they were asking me about what was happening at home. Sakele Langa was my cousin, he often came to my home to visit us and one day as I came from work I came across Stembiso Ndlovo and he asked me and he wanted to know that because I indicated to him that I was not a member of any organisation what these members of Inkatha wanted and I indicated to him that I was not Hlongwane but I was Hlongwane's son and I had no authority as to who came to pay us any visit.

MR WILLS: That's right. And then you approached Zakele Nkethle in regard to this incident, is that ...[intervention]

MS KHAMPEPE: Not Nkethle Mr Wills, you must be getting tired. I think it's Zakele Langa and I think Mr Stembiso Ndlovo you referred to is not his cousin, that's his neighbour. I must be getting tired Mr Wills.

MR WILLS: Thank you Miss Committee Member.

Just to repeat that questions, eventually - you were obviously concerned about this approach that Stembiso Ndlovo had made to you and so eventually you went to Zakele Nkethle in order to discuss this with him, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And why did you go to this person?

MR HLONGWANE: I did because I had spoken to my cousin and my cousin had told me that they would not help me unless I was a member of Inkatha.

MR WILLS: And why did you need help?

MR HLONGWANE: At that time there was already fighting between the UDF and Inkatha although there wasn't shooting between these two parties. There was an organisation that had been launched, HIKO. This organisation prevented school children from being hit.

MR WILLS: Okay, so am I correct in assuming that because this Thembiso Ndlovo who was known to be a UDF person had approached you in this manner, you felt threatened, you felt a fear that you were going to be attacked?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is the truth.

MR WILLS: And you went to Nkethle, Zukele Nkethle for protection?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I went to Zukele Nkethle who was a Central Committee member of the Inkatha.

MR WILLS: And what did he say to you?

MR HLONGWANE: Zukele said he would not be able to help me unless I joined the IFP as they did not render assistance to non-IFP members.

MR WILLS: And did this result in you paying your R1-50 and joining the IFP?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, before this period - and you recall this as to be sometime during 1985, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, although I cannot remember the dates correctly but I think it was in 1985.

MR WILLS: Before this event, when you approached Mr Nkethle, you had not been involved in any crimes whatsoever, is that correct, or any of the political violence?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Now what happened when you became a member of the IFP in that area?

MR HLONGWANE: I started getting involved within the IFP, that's when they attacked my house and I could not even go out to the shops. That is when we started fighting, stabbing each other and burning each other's houses down.

MR WILLS: When you say: "each other", am I to assume you were fighting with the IFP against the UDF?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now you say, and you use the words in your affidavit, you say: "you had to participate in the activities of the IFP failing which you would considered an enemy"

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, you also say that you regarded the UDF as the enemy, is that correct? I'm not talking about the IFP generally, I'm referring to your own state of mind after you had joined the IFP.

MR HLONGWANE: It was not just me, everyone in my family regarded the UDF as the enemy. My parents also told us the UDF was not a good organisation because at that time the UDF had already started stopping people from going to the shops, they used violence. And at that time our parents, my father at the time was a Xonda and the UDF was against Xondas.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Hlongwane, if you can just remember to slow down because the Committee Members are writing things down, just talk slowly. What is a Xonda?

MR HLONGWANE: Xonda were those people who worked as police like the security guards but were not professional.

...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please be quiet.

MR HLONGWANE: At that time if a girl wore pants she would be beaten. If they found a male and woman together, they will be beaten. They would also guard the streets. That was my father's duty. One day Samsa told me that I was arrogant like my father, that's where the conflict started.

MR WILLS: Am I to understand that your father was a traditional, a person who believed in the traditional values of Zulu culture very firmly?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now, you say in your affidavit that in these early days there was intense fighting between the youths, the UDF and the ANC youths, and that there were no firearms that were used, is that correct? In the early days?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is the truth.

MR WILLS: And so you fought with knives?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, knives and stones.

MR WILLS: Now you also say that your basic job in Mpumalanga was to rid the township of UDF members.

MR HLONGWANE: Not only in the township, there is Summersdale and Georgedale. At that time there were four sections in the township and then there was Bopele and Georgedale. We would attack every boy in that area for the reason that they were supposed to be IFP. If they did not attend meetings we would attack everybody. If maybe children from a particular household did not attend a meeting we would attack everybody in the house or if there was no-one in the house we would attack the house itself and maybe burn it down.

MR WILLS: Now who told you to do this? Did anybody tell you to do this or did you decide to do this on your own?

MR HLONGWANE: We would be instructed on Tuesdays and Thursdays. We named Nkethle's house Las Vegas, the Central Committee Member.

MR WILLS: Sorry, when you say you meet at his house - first of all Mr Hlongwane, you don't have to talk very close to the microphone. If you talk close to the microphone it creates distortion. You can keep your head far away and it will pick up your voice. And also I must remind you again to slow down. If we have to sit here all day tomorrow to take your evidence that's fine, we're in no hurry. Do you understand?

MR HLONGWANE: I will apologise because I am not able to speak slowly.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the pace that he's being going at has not been too bad Mr Wills, we can cope with it.

MR WILLS: Thank you.

Okay. Now you mentioned that you met at somebody's house on Tuesdays and Thursdays, whose house was this?

MR HLONGWANE: Zakele Nkethle's house who was a Central

Committee Member and he was also a Councillor at Ward 10.

MR WILLS: Now you also say that eventually because of your - the fact that you were loyal and brave you were put in charge of a group of persons, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is so. I was in charge of a group of Telewene.

MR WILLS: Now you name the people in paragraph 15 of your affidavit as being the persons who you were in charge of, do you confirm that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: I'm not going to go into the details of that at this hearing, I will do that when the people from Mpumalanga are present in the gallery.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: I want you to refer to paragraph 17 of your affidavit where you say that all of these Inkatha groups were formed with a specific purpose, what was that purpose?

MR HLONGWANE: Will you please repeat the question?

MR WILLS: I say - okay, you speak in your affidavit of three Inkatha groups that were formed in Mpumalanga area, you speak of your own group or the group that was - sorry, Zakele Nkethle's group, you speak of Mrs Khulu's group and you speak Villa Nkuna's group, okay?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now what was the purpose of these groups, what did they want to do?

MR HLONGWANE: It was to fight the UDF and to kill the UDF.

MR WILLS: Now you say that you had meetings and you also had camps, what happened at these camps?

MR HLONGWANE: We were taught about Inkatha and the dangers of the ANC returning to the country. Zakele Nkethle used to tell us that if the ANC returned we would never have our women and they would also take our houses, cars and if you were a shop owner they would take everything.

MR WILLS: And how did that make you feel?

MR HLONGWANE: I was very angry. I was very angry that a person can just come and grab my belongings without permission, that was the reason why I hated the UDF.

MR WILLS: You also indicate that you received assistance from the KwaZulu Police in these operations and you refer to two persons, particularly you refer to one person, Jabulani Makatini and another person whom you recall as a policeman by the name of Kaluse, do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Those are the persons that you can remember?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: When you say the KwaZulu Police helped you, what do you mean?

MR HLONGWANE: There were police who were known in the township as Amakesi and they used to travel an NO kombi. When the fighting intensified between the Inkatha and UDF they helped by giving us ammunition. That was the assistance that they gave us. And they would also inform us of the whereabouts of our opponents.

MR WILLS: Yes. And you say that you yourself personally received ammunition from Jabulani Makatini who is a KwaZulu policeman, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is so.

MR WILLS: It wasn't only the KwaZulu Police that helped you, it was also the South African Police, is that not correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, there was van Vuuren and Steenkamp. Van Vuuren was a Warrant Officer and the other one was a Sergeant at the time.

MR WILLS: How did they help you?

MR HLONGWANE: They did not help me personally but they helped the IFP. If we were to attack or maybe if somebody was going to be arrested they would tell us that this person was going to be arrested and they will inform us of when that person would return. If that person did not return, a Central Committee member would be informed and that person would have to be fetched. They reported to us. I forgot to mention Smith who was a Station Commander at Hammersdale. Before a person was arrested we would sit down at Las Vegas, Zakele Nkethle's house and discuss whether this person should indeed be arrested when he would receive bail. That is the kind of assistance that they gave us.

MR WILLS: And did they do anything in regard to firearms or ammuntion?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, we did not have ammunition, we would get this from them.

MR WILLS: Now, you confirm that on one occasion the Riot Unit from Pretoria was once brought to work in Hammersdale and these policemen even visited you. I refer to the top of page 10 which is paragraph 18, it's quite a long paragraph.

MR HLONGWANE: Page 10?

MR WILLS: Page 139 of the record and at the top of the page.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now you'd been operating for a while when you say that Madla Nduna came to Hammersdale, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: Can you give the Committee Members an idea of how long you'd been operating in this position as an Inkatha Youth Member attacking the UDF before Madla Nduna came?

MR HLONGWANE: If I'm not mistaken I think Madla Nduna arrived in '86 or '87 and I started working in 1984.

MR WILLS: So you'd been operating already by this stage, for a period of three years as an active IFP Youth Member who attacked the UDF, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct, we did so.

MR WILLS: Now, my understanding of this violence is that it was extremely intense violence with extremely close and intense fighting, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now again in paragraph 20 you mentioned certain incidents that you were involved in in Hammersdale. I'm not going to concern ourselves with that at his hearing, we'll talk about that when we go to Hammersdale, okay?

MR HLONGWANE: Okay, I understand.

MR WILLS: I want to turn to paragraph 22 where you indicate that you were recruited as a South African Police Special Constable, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now you say you just deserted your job at Glacier Bearings because Nketle told you that you could get a job with the Inkatha people, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And you didn't even pick up your pay from Glacier Bearings, you just left there and there and immediately went to the police station to fill in the application forms, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now were there UDF members with you filling in application forms for this position which was for special training as Constables?

MR HLONGWANE: A UDF member would have been killed on the spot. It was only IFP members who were recruited and not UDF members because our intention was to come back and kill the same UDF people.

MR WILLS: Now you indicate that at that stage you met a couple of the Caprivi trainees and you list them in paragraph 25 at page 142, but I want to concentrate on the actual training you received. You indicate that you were eventually taken from Pietermartizburg and you did some training at the Koeberg in the Cape, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Is it not so that that was - that you also saw Mr Mkhize at this training?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now what did the SAP members train you as regards the attitude towards the ANC or the UDF at this Koeberg training?

MR HLONGWANE: The training that I received involved training on shot gun and 9mm pistols. What they used to tell us, that on our return we were going to kill the UDF.

MR WILLS: Is this the South African Police trainers at Koeberg?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, the white policemen.

MR WILLS: You trained for about six weeks in Koeberg and you then were deployed for a time in Maritzburg under the immediate command of a person, Warrant Officer Penz, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: I'm referring to the bottom of page - now again I'm not going to deal with the incident that occurred in Maritzburg so I am going to move right now from page 145 to just an incident in, to page 147, okay? Have you got page 147?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now you indicate that a certain policeman there assisted you in avoiding arrest, is that correct? Can you just briefly explain to the Committee Members and the public who this policeman was?

MR HLONGWANE: It was Warrant Officer van Vuuren.

MR WILLS: And how did he assist you evading arrest?

MR HLONGWANE: I was supposed to go on duty at 10, I did not do so. He arrived at 6 o'clock, we called him Mr Six Eleven. He hooted outside and told me that I was wanted by the police, that I should leave the area. I went to Zakele and talked to him and thereafter I was taken to Ulundi.

MR WILLS: So basically what you're saying is this Mr van Vuuren was stationed at the Hammersdale Police Station, is that correct? So he drove all the way to Pietermartizburg where you were stationed to give you this warning, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: He worked at Hammersdale.

MR WILLS: No, I know van Vuuren worked at Hammersdale but when he gave you this information, where were you at that time when he spoke to you?

MR HLONGWANE: I think I made a mistake somewhere. At about 10 in the evening I went into the house together with Mundi and after posting, a telephone call came in and it was van Vuuren on the line and he said I should not go on duty because I was wanted by the police. I was in Pietermaritzburg at the time and the following morning I went to Hammersdale and he told me that they were going to fix my case, thereafter I went to Mr Zakele Nkethle.

On arriving there I was given money and I went to Ulundi to Mr M Z Khumalo. And on arriving at Ulundi Mr Khumalo said he had already heard about me and he said I had done a good job and he told me to stay at his house. After supper on that day I was given a place to sleep. I was given ...[intervention]

MR WILLS: Sorry, this person - I might have missed something, the person you went to in Ulundi, who was this person?

MR HLONGWANE: Mr M Z Khumalo.

MR WILLS: Yes. And did he arrange eventually for you to go into hiding at a camp which has been referred to by Mr Luthuli and that was the Makuzi Camp?

MR HLONGWANE: I was taken by car to Makuzi Camp. I was with Mr Biela. Mr Khumalo's son stopped us and said all major routes were closed and we returned to Ulundi and Mr Luthuli took me himself thereafter to Makuzi.

MR WILLS: And were the roads blocked? What was the reason for the roads being blocked?

MR HLONGWANE: Police wanted to arrest us but at the same time they were communicating telephonically with M Z Khumalo.

MR WILLS: So in other words what you're saying, what you've said in affidavit is, the South African Police were wanting to arrest you?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And that these persons assisted you in evading that arrest?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, they did.

MR WILLS: I want you now to turn to page 165 - sorry, and just very briefly there, you indicate there that you had been operating in Ermelo and then you got instructions to move to somewhere else, who gave you these instructions and where were you told to move to?

MR HLONGWANE: From Ermelo Madla Nduna telephoned me that he needed me at eSikhawini.

MR WILLS: Yes. Now, before you left Ermelo - and I refer you to page 167 of your affidavit, you and some other people received other training by the SANDF, by the SADF should I say, do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: And who told you to go on this training?

MR HLONGWANE: M Z Khumalo.

MR WILLS: And now - where was this training?

MR HLONGWANE: I don't remember correctly because we travelled around a lot.

MR WILLS: Now again, in the second lot of training that you received - and please refer to your, I want you to refer to page 167 and paragraph 96, it might refresh your memory. Can you see paragraph 96?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I do.

MR WILLS: Was this training in the Ulundi area, not far from Ulundi?

MR HLONGWANE: We went to Ulundi and from there we were transported by bus to a destination in the Northern direction.

MR WILLS: Now again, the people that were trained in this particular, on this particular occasion, were they all members of the same organisation?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And what organisation was that?

MR HLONGWANE: The Inkatha Freedom Party.

MR WILLS: And now you say that at this training you were trained by some white SADF members, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR WILLS: And that you were trained in the use of AK47's, Uzzi machine guns, shotguns, G3 assault rifles and F1 and RDG5 handgrenades?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is so.

MR WILLS: And you say at page 169 of your affidavit - can you look at paragraph 103, page 169?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Have you got that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR WILLS: Now what was the purpose of this training?

 MR HLONGWANE: It was to protect IFP or areas that were controlled by Chiefs, as well as to kill the ANC. There would also be an election in 1994. At that time we were supposed to block the routes along to Tugela and kill those who were going to the election.

MR WILLS:: Now you say that there were certain people in charge of you, the Commandant of the base and I refer you to Page 170 below the list of names - you say that the Commandant of this base was Mr Luthuli. Is that right? And then there was a Mr Powell, Mr Philip Powell was second-in-charge. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes. The person in charge was Philip Powell and Mdlanduna was his assistant.

MR WILLS:: Now you say that at the end of this training, you were called the Self Protection Unit. Is that right? The SPU.

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: Now you were addressed at the end of this training by Mr C J Mtetwe. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: We were in fact expecting Chief Mangasuthu Buthelezi but on that morning we were told that he had a trip to undertake, therefore Mr Mtetwe was the one who came to address us in fact.

MR WILLS:: And what did he say to you?

MR HLONGWANE:: He thanked us and said that the chief Minister was also grateful that we were heroes.

MR WILLS:: And what did he say you were going to do?

MR HLONGWANE:: He said we will return to our areas to wait there. We would be killing the ANC, and at the training we were trained on how to attack and penetrate. So he was grateful for all of this.

MR WILLS:: Yes, thank you. Mr Chairperson, I see its 16h00.

CHAIRMAN:: Would this be a convenient time to adjourn for the day, Mr Wills? Yes, thank you. We have again come to the end of proceedings. We will adjourn until tomorrow at 09h30.

HEARING ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION ON 22 APRIL - DAY 10

CHAIRMAN:: Good morning everybody. Yesterday Mr Hlongwane was or had commenced giving his evidence in chief, and Mr Wills are you ready to proceed with Mr Hlongwane's evidence?

I N HLONGWANE: (s.u.o.)

MR WILLS:: Yes thank you Mr Chairperson and Committee. Mr Hlongwane can you hear me?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I do.

MR WILLS:: You will recall yesterday we were ... just got to the point where you arrived at eSikhawini. I'm proceeding for the record, I mean for the benefit of members of the Committee. I'll be proceeding from page 171 of the record and also at this stage I would just like to re-emphasise, in case there is any misunderstanding, that through an agreement with the Evidence Leader, I have purposely left out incidents which occurred in areas other than Northern Natal as one, the victims of those incidents aren't here and secondly, there has been some complications as regards advising those victims of these hearings; and it obviously is our intention to lead that evidence at a later and appropriate date.

CHAIRMAN:: Yes we understand that Mr Wills, thank you.

MR WILLS:: Right, your primary purpose initially to - when you were sent to eSikhawini was to guard B B Biela. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: And that you were stationed at his house and you lived with him for a long period of time. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: And then later you moved to Romeo's house. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: Now, you were also told by Mdlanduna that sometime a person, whose code name was `No Touch' was going to come and see you. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: And who is this person `No Touch'?

MR HLONGWANE:: Brian Mkhize.

MR WILLS:: And did this person in fact arrive?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes he did arrive.

MR WILLS:: And what did Mdlanduna tell you about this person?

MR HLONGWANE:: Mdlanduna had told me that when Maduna arrived, he will tell me about the activities or about a job about killing people here at eSikhawini, and I would also be under Maduna's command.

MR WILLS:: And essentially that's in fact what happened, not so?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is what happened.

MR WILLS:: Now there has been talk in the earlier evidence from all the three previous Applicants, about various meetings that took place from time-to-time, between sometimes with the local leadership, sometimes with the hierarchy in Ulundi. Now did you participate in these meetings?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I will be present but my task will be guarding the place or and their cars, but I will not be inside the room where the meeting was held. I will be just guarding outside.

MR WILLS:: So, I mean in other words you were not an active participant in the meetings. You trusted that what was happening in the meetings ... well you had no participation in the actual meetings themselves. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: No I did not have a role to play in the meetings as such.

MR WILLS:: What was your role?

MR HLONGWANE:: It was to eliminate IFP enemies.

MR WILLS:: Now moving to paragraph 111, you described in some detail the attack on the IFP Rally and this attack is through your paragraph 111 and 112. Just to emphasise the gravity of that incident, I see that you say that this fighting essentially went on the whole day. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: And you say many people from both the ANC and the IFP were killed and injured on that day?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: You also say that you, yourself, didn't kill anybody that day?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I did not.

MR WILLS:: Now you go on, on paragraph 113 to talk of a meeting at Hlanganane Hall. This is one of these incidents where you were guarding those persons meeting at the hall. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: But you confirm that paragraph 113 and this for the convenience of the Committee members, is the meeting that's been referred to earlier as regards the instructions to take some... to identify targets. You confirm at that meeting, to the best of your knowledge, that the persons who were present were B B Biela, Mrs Mbuyazi, Chief Motaba, Kina Mkhize, Romeo Mbamba, Mr Nzuza and Zwele Dlamini?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: You also indicated that at that - from your knowledge of that meeting, that certain people were identified and that those people who were identified to be killed were those people you have listed in paragraph 115, Vincent Mkhwanazi, Sietla Makatini, Jerome Zabani and Themba Mmbasa.

MR HLONGWANE:: That's correct.

MR WILLS:: And you say that after the meeting ended, you recall some discussion and complaint about vehicles. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: What was that complaint?

MR HLONGWANE:: We were complaining that we didn't have a car to use on these attacks on the ANC.

MR WILLS:: Yes and then after the meeting, where did you go? Can you remember?

MR HLONGWANE:: I don't remember where we went.

MR WILLS:: Well just to refer, you say at the top of page 46 the end of paragraph 116 that the meeting ended and I went back to my post at the Mayor's house. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's how it happened.

MR WILLS:: Now we've heard - I'm turning now to this incident where there were - there was a car that was attacked outside the Hlanganane Hall and do you recall that incident to have occurred some time in March 1992, and this is the incident where certain people, certain IFP people who you've called the Mznkabi were from Johannesburg, were present. Can you tell the Committee about that incident?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes. Those people had been brought by Themba Khoza because there was a person who had died. Therefore, their duty at eSikhawini was to retaliate the death of that person. So they were going to attack around eSikhawini.

MR WILLS:: Yes. Did Themba Khoza actually come to eSikhawini with these people, or did he just send them, to the best of your recollection?

MR HLONGWANE:: As far as I know, Themba Khoza spoke to Ngubane first and thereafter Ngubane told me that there were people who were going to arrive from Johannesburg, whom I was supposed to show all houses. The reason I was chosen to go around the area was because I looked like them. I used to wear their T-shirts - go to the areas where there are shebeens and I was shopping at their shops, going around Thokozeni and I was wearing an ANC T-shirt. So I was asked to move around with these people from Johannesburg, because I knew the area well. I was not supposed to work with them in attacking, but I was just supposed to identify targets for them. I did this.

MR WILLS:: And who told you to do that?

MR HLONGWANE:: Mgubaye did.

MR WILLS:: Ya. Now ...

CHAIRMAN:: Sorry, is that Mrs Mbuyazi?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes, it's Miss Mbuyazi.

MR WILLS:: Okay, there was a meeting that was called at Hlanganane Hall where these people were, and you all met there. You say in your Affidavit in para 117 that you all camped there, at Hlanganane Hall that night, where Mrs Mbuyazi was in charge of all of you. Can you remember that?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes.

MR WILLS:: Now there was an incident where the people were burned in this car. Can you just relate to the Committee the circumstances surrounding that incident?

MR HLONGWANE:: Mgubaye was there and Mr Hlela as well, and the local leadership of eSikhawini, and there were other IFP members. The people from Johannesburg were outside. A person, one of the people from Johannesburg called Zhondi, said to me: Sadam, a car has just parked outside. On going outside, I saw the car outside and Biyela and Mrs Mbuyazi were on their stomachs. I drew my pistol and Demandi, who was with the people from Johannesburg, said to me we should go to the car. As we approached the car, I started firing shots and the people from Johannesburg were not very accurate in their shooting, so they were just shooting at random. I retreated and the people from Johannesburg proceeded shooting at the car, until they eventually arrived in front of the car. They used all their ammunition. On arriving at the car they said ...(indistinct) and we were looking on and then they burned the car. Thereafter they went back into the hall, and Mrs Mbuyazi was very pleased about this.

CHAIRMAN:: Sorry, Mr Hlongwane, how many people from Johannesburg were their there?

MR HLONGWANE:: About 6 or 5.

MR WILLS:: Mr Chairperson, it seems to me that we are only getting some of the interpretation. Of course, I appreciate the interpretation is very difficult but particularly perhaps when Mr Hlongwane speaks quickly, but in that incident, I would estimate we got 50-60% of the interpretation, and bits that we didn't get. I don't know how we can resolve that?

CHAIRMAN:: Sorry, are you saying that all of us got 50 or 60%, or is there something wrong with your particular machine?

MR WILLS:: No, no, this is a general problem yes.

CHAIRMAN:: General translation. Perhaps Mr Hlongwane, when you are relating incidents, it was said to you yesterday if you could perhaps speak a little bit slower to give the interpreters an opportunity to give a full interpretation. They've got a very difficult job to perform, because they've got to interpret as fast as you speak, so obviously the faster you speak, the more difficult it is for them. So if you could just bear them in mind when you are testifying. I don't know if you want to repeat that incident.

MR WILLS:: No thank you.

MR HLONGWANE:: I can repeat.

MR WILLS:: There are certain - Mr Hlongwane just wait for me please. I will draw certain incidents out via examination. Mr Hlongwane, possibly a good idea is when you are telling a story you must tell it in small bits. Say a few sentences and then wait and let the interpreters translate, and then continue, okay. What I want to ask about that incident is, you mention something about you seen Mrs Mbuyazi on her stomach. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: What do you mean by that? What made her be on her stomach and were other people on their stomachs?

MR HLONGWANE:: It was in the way in which this car arrived. The car did not move along the road to Hlanganane as it should. It actually left the road and shone its lights directly at the hall, and then the people at the hall thought that they were being attacked.

MS KHAMPEPE:: Mr Wills is asking the question: What do you mean Mrs Mbuyazi was on her stomach, I mean that she took cover in the hall?

MR WILLS:: So what you are saying essentially is that the people in the hall felt that this car was coming to attack them and, as a result of that, they lay on their stomachs. Is that right, to avoid the attack?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's what I am saying.

MR WILLS:: Now your job there, was it also as a guard?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes it was my duty to guard.

MR WILLS:: So if somebody came out, it was also your duty to make sure that you neutralised any threat. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: I would have to die first before the people in the hall were attacked. That is correct.

MR WILLS:: Now, you admit that you yourself fired shots and you say in your Affidavit that you used your 357 Magnum. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

CHAIRMAN:: Sorry Mr Wills. Could I just ask a question on this? Mr Hlongwane, did you notice whether there were any people in the car when you approached it and fired shots?

MR HLONGWANE:: No, I did not see.

CHAIRMAN:: Or at any stage, did you know whether the car had people in it, at any stage - either when it was being fired at or when it was being set alight?

MR HLONGWANE:: I only heard voices from within the car when the people was screaming inside the car.

MR WILLS:: Mr Hlongwane, just to be clear, particularly in view of Mr Stewart's comment about the translation; as I understood your evidence, this car's lights - the car stopped in such a way that its lights were shining into the hall. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: And, to be fair, your purpose of running out towards that car was to attack and kill anybody in that car. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: Now if this car's lights were shining in the hall, it must have meant that the car was not a very long great distance away from the hall. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: Are you in a position to estimate the distance?

MR HLONGWANE:: I think it would be a distance similar to the veranda outside. A person inside the car was able to see the people in the hall.

CHAIRMAN:: Do you estimate that at approximately 20 paces, 20-25 paces? About 25 paces?

MR WILLS:: Yes, I agree with that Mr Chairperson. You see what worries me is the end of your report of this incident in your Affidavit. You say the Kwa Zulu police arrived and it was discovered that people were burned in the car. Then you go further and you say the police then came to the hall and dropped off a member by the name of Mr Mbato, who was a constable stationed at eSikhawini. Constable Mbato stayed with us until the following morning. Did the police not come in and ask questions about what had happened as regards the burning and the firing of that car and want to take statements from people?

MR HLONGWANE:: When the police arrived at the hall, they first started eating. There was a Constable Mbato. When he got off the car he went into the hall and spoke to Mrs Khumalo and said he was very hungry. They went to the hall before they went to the scene of the incident. They knew very well that the people who had burned the car were inside the hall. They even saw the guns and weapons but they didn't do anything. But Constable Mbato was left with us.

MR WILLS:: Okay, Mr Hlongwane, I want to now go through a couple of incidents very briefly, because both Mr Mhambo and Mr Mkhize have given details of these incidents and I'm just going to ask you to confirm certain things, okay? The first incident I want to refer to is the return of the weapons. It seems that these same people from Johannesburg were arrested by the Kwa Zulu police and Mr Mkhize gave evidence that both, they were released after being arrested by the Kwa Zulu police and their weapons were returned to Mrs Mbuyazi. Do you confirm that?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's what happened.

MR WILLS:: Now you've heard a detailed account from both Mr Mkhize and Mr Mhambo about the assassination of April Tarliwe. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's so.

MR WILLS:: And do you confirm that it was initially intended that you would be in that assassination squad but these people returned to Mrs Mbuyazi's house after they had already killed him. So you didn't participate in the attack. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes they went to investigate initially, and then they would pick me up later.

MR WILLS:: But when they came back, they told you he was already dead?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: Now the murder of Napthal Khumalo is the next incident. I see you participated in this attack. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I was there.

MR WILLS:: You have heard the evidence of Brian Mkhize and Mr Mhambo in relation to this incident?

MR HLONGWANE:: They put it the way it happened.

MR WILLS:: Now just one little aspect of this incident. You ended up at Mr Robert Mkhize's house. Is that correct, that night? You were dropped off and you weren't taken home. You walked to Mr Mkhize's house. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: It was not Mr Mkhize's house but it belonged to his girlfriend. We did not find him at his house, and then we proceeded to his girlfriend and there we found him.

MR WILLS:: Yes, sorry - that is contained in the Affidavit. I apologise for that. The important thing is that when you found Mkhize, what did you say to him?

MR HLONGWANE:: We told him that we had made ...(indistinct) board the first bus. He was very pleased and he woke up the girlfriend for us to make tea, and then he made a call to Manziwa, B B Biyela and told him not to worry, and that the boys were at his house. Thereafter we got into his car, a BMW, and went to eSikhawini and he dropped us at Mr Hlela's house.

MR WILLS:: Yes thank you. This incident that you report on page 178 in paragraph 123 is a new incident, that nobody has heard about. It was some time in 1992, when there was an attempt to assassinate Mr Beki Ntuli, the ANC leader Mr Beki Ntuli. Do you recall that incident?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I remember. I was there.

MR WILLS:: Now who was with you. Do you recall who was with you that night?

MR HLONGWANE:: Mrs Mbuyazi had asked me to take Izingabi to Mr Beki Ntuli's house. So I was with police Izingabi, the group from Johannesburg, to identify the house of Mr Beki Ntuli.

MS KHAMPEPE:: Mr Wills, I note that in the application, it is Mr Mbuyazi who was supposed to have given this order. Is this a typographical error?

MR WILLS:: I can clear that up. Sorry I can't remember myself the consultation. I'll clear it up. Thank you for pointing that out Ms Khampepe. Who gave you the order to attack Beki Ntuli's house on this occasion?

MR HLONGWANE:: Mrs Mbuyazi was responsible for giving orders to attack. Mr Mbuyazi has never given me an order.

MR WILLS:: Thank you. It must be with respect a typographical - Thank you Ms Committee member. Now it's just in short, you find out when you'd returned that you, in fact, made a mistake. Is that correct? As regards to the target?

MR HLONGWANE:: I was told by Mrs Mbuyazi and who told me that we had actually attacked number 123 instead of 125.

MR WILLS:: Now do you know who lived at house number 123?

MR HLONGWANE:: I would be telling you lies. I don't know.

CHAIRMAN:: Did anybody die in the attack?

MR HLONGWANE:: I wouldn't know because Mrs Mbuyazi reprimanded me heavily about this. As I said, I wouldn't know but Mrs Mbuyazi was very upset.

MR WILLS:: Right, I want to go now to the murder of ANC Youth Leader, Vincent Mkhwanazi. Do you recall the incident?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I remember.

MR WILLS:: Are you saying your Affidavit is the same as being confirmed by Mkhize and Mhambo that this individual was mentioned at the original meeting in Hlanganane Hall where certain ANC targets were identified. Is that correct? He was an identified troublesome ANC person who was on a hit list. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: Can you explain the circumstances leading to his death?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I can explain. What I remember clearly is that Mbuso and Hlela had been told by myself that they should go and meet Pristi Junie Zulu, because a telephone call had come through that they were supposed to go there.

MR WILLS:: Slow down please.

MR HLONGWANE:: Romeo was alleged to have stolen a car. Thereafter there was a meeting. I don't know whether we used Mr Biyela's car, but we went to attack Nati's home. On the following information, I was not really involved in the following information.

MR WILLS:: Sorry, sorry.

CHAIRMAN:: Are we talking about the same incidents here?

MR WILLS:: I am just going to clear that up. I want you to refer to paragraph 124, sorry page 178 paragraph 124.

CHAIRMAN:: This is the incident involving the ANC Youth Leader by the name of Vincent Mkhwanazi.

MR WILLS:: Not Nati Gumedi.

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I see it.

MR WILLS:: Do you want to refresh your memory and look at the paragraph or can you remember the incident?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I remember.

MR WILLS:: Now, I'm going to start this incident again, now. This person's name was mentioned at a meeting at Hlanganane Hall. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: Now tell us how he died.

MR HLONGWANE:: These boys who were mentioned as being troublesome at eSikhawini, that Inkatha was tired of these boys; at the meeting that was held, they were identified by Mrs Mbuyazi that they were the people who were going to take the first bus.

CHAIRMAN:: So you say more than one person was identified. You have referred to the boys and they were identified. Who was identified?

MR HLONGWANE:: It was Vincent Mkhwanazi, Sietla Makatini, Jerome Zebani, Themba Mmbasa, and Themba Mmbasa was a hitman. Jerome a hitman as well.

CHAIRMAN:: Those are the names referred to in paragraph 115. Thank you.

MR WILLS:: Now continue. How did this person die?

MR HLONGWANE:: I was walking with Lucky Mbanja and we met them - there were 3 of them, near a certain passage near the clinic. On meeting them, at the time our intention, because these people were ANC members, we greeted them. They greeted us back. Lucky then said do you recognise this person and I said: `no'. And he said: `but who are we looking for?' This is the big fish and I said: `Who is it', and he told me who it was. We turned and we passed them and then made another U-turn and then we approached them and attacked them near the passage.

MS KHAMPEPE:: What time was it when you met these people, Mr Hlongwane?

MR HLONGWANE:: It was at night.

MS KHAMPEPE:: Approximately at what time at night?

MR HLONGWANE:: Between 7 and 8.

MR WILLS:: And is it not so that you pulled out your firearm and shot at Vincent and one of the boys, and Lucky shot the other boy?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: And is it not also so that all three boys fell to the ground?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: And is it not also so that you thought that you had succeeded in killing all three of them?

MR HLONGWANE:: That's the impression we got.

MR WILLS:: Now what section did this occur in?

MR HLONGWANE:: H2.

MR WILLS:: And who was in control of that particular section. Which political party?

MR HLONGWANE:: The ANC.

MR WILLS:: You say then - you go on and I refer you to page 179 - The Murder of the ANC Youth. You shot another boy whose identity you don't know. Is that correct. The same night. You and Lucky?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: And you intended to kill this boy?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: Why did you shoot him?

MR HLONGWANE:: We were just shooting any boy that we came across.

MR WILLS:: And why was that?

MR HLONGWANE:: The Mayor and his wife, they were not pleased about a day having gone by without a gun shot being fired, and ...

CHAIRMAN:: Can you please keep quiet?

MR HLONGWANE:: The Mayor, Mr Biyela and his wife were not happy about a day having gone by without a gun fire and they would come back to us and say: `Sons, not even a gun shot?'

MR WILLS:: But this person - how did you know that he was an enemy or did you know he was enemy?

MR HLONGWANE:: I'd like to explain to this Committee that there is just one small group of Inkatha in eSikhawini, J2 in particular. When we arrived at eSikhawini it was indicated that whatever you came across, you had to shoot. Anybody that you came across in other sections, for example, had to be killed and then go to report to Mrs Mbuyazi. It was not important who you shot. If a person was shot that had to be reported, but not in J2. There were many people in this hole from J2, for example, and on arrival at eSikhawini I was instructed thus; and I would go out in the evening to shoot. Mr B B Biyela would make it a point that when I came back in the evening, for example, the house that I stayed in - he would come to my backroom and ask me how many people we had shot that night. That very same time, he would telephone Mrs Mbuyazi who would come immediately to be reported on the matter.

CHAIRMAN:: This other youth that you say you shot after you shot Vincent. Was he also a pedestrian or walking in the street?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: I see in paragraph 126, you report a complaint that you made to the Mayor. Can you tell the Committee what that complaint was?

MR HLONGWANE:: I was complaining that I was no longer able to sleep at night because Kina would come and pick me up now and then, and the following morning I had to be at the Mayor's place, guard the Mayor. I had to sleep in the car sometimes, wake up and I felt that this was too much. I was not able to guard the Mayor and kill people at night at the same time. This was too much. That was my complaint.

MS KHAMPEPE:: Mr, may I interpose Mr Wills. Mr Hlongwane I note that you alleged that you lodged this complaint on the same day after you had killed the boy that you had met, walking along a footpath, when you were in the company of Mr Mbanja. Is this true or was the complaint lodged on another day?

MR HLONGWANE:: Shortly I'd like to explain. Things here seem to be mixed up. They are not following the same sequence. Some happened earlier and some of the things happened after. Things are not following the same sequence.

MR WILLS:: I think the - this boy that you shot walking in H2 section - what time of day or night was that? Can you remember, I mean was it in the day or was it in the night?

MR HLONGWANE:: It was at night.

MR FALCONER:: Did you shoot him close range? Were you close range when you shot him?

MR HLONGWANE:: I shot all of them at close range.

MS KHAMPEPE:: Why I'm asking that question Mr Hlongwane is that at paragraph 126, you state that later that day you lodged a complaint about you being the only one who had to do all the work, to Mr B B Biyela, and from my reading it would appear that the complaint was lodged on the same day after you shot the boy at H2, and in your evidence you have testified that this person - the boy was shot at about 7 or 8 at night. So I'm just worried about the day that you are referring to at paragraph 126.

MR HLONGWANE:: I would not - I said I am not in a position to say exactly as to whether the complaint was lodged the same evening or the following day.

MR WILLS:: Thank you. Mr Hlongwane, now I can see from your Affidavit on page 127 that this complaint was attended to and then certain other people were brought to guard the Mayor and then you were free to continue with your operations, your hit-squad operations. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: Can you think of any reason why Mayor Biyela didn't keep you as a guard and get somebody else to conduct the hit-squad operations?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes, because people at eSikhawini had to continue dying. He phoned Mr MZ after having attended to my complaint and then I went to stay with Romeo Mbamba, because I had to continue with the work that I was supposed to do.

MR WILLS:: Were you regarded as being quite good at that sort of work?

MR HLONGWANE:: Not at eSikhawini only. In the whole Kwa Zulu, Natal, right up to the Eastern Transvaal.

MR WILLS:: I am going to turn now to page 180 of the record and deal with the attacks on ANC members. This is being covered by Mr Mhambo and Mr Mkhize. It concerns the incident where Mr Cele brought a vehicle from Ulundi and that night you went out and you killed certain people, quite close to - I think three people died that we know of, quite close to the Umzemgwenya Lower Primary School. Do you recall that night?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I do recall that.

MR WILLS:: Romeo has testified and Kina has testified as to what occurred this night and I don't want you to have to repeat that, only to confirm that you heard what they say and you confirm what they say, is in fact true. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is true.

MR WILLS:: The only thing that I want you to testify on your own in this regard is you saw when Mr Mkhize was giving evidence, you saw when Mr Ngubane was asking questions, that Mr Nkosa Nati Jouber was brought forward for all of you to see. Do you remember ...(indistinct) Committee members. I know that you don't remember his name, but what I'm saying is do you recall the person who was standing here, who was clearly very badly injured, even now; standing in front of the Committee a couple of days ago?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I do remember.

MR WILLS:: Do you recognise that person?

MR HLONGWANE:: I remember the incident as to how it happened. I cannot identify him because there were many of them and I'm not in a position to identify him perhaps, but I remember the incident.

MR WILLS:: What I'm trying to say was do you recall him as being the person who you shot outside the school that evening?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I remember that.

MR WILLS:: Right I'm going to now turn to paragraph 133 where that section is entitled: `Attempts to influence the Bail Application in favour of IFP Members'. Again that evidence has been given by both Mr Mkhize and Mr Mhambo. Do you confirm the evidence that they gave in regard to this incident?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I confirm it.

MR WILLS:: And do you confirm the attack, the evidence that Mr Mhambo gave. I know Mr Khize wasn't there and he didn't testify to this incident. But do you confirm the evidence that Mr Mhambo gave in regard to the attack on the bus stop near Nzuza's house, some time in 1993?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I confirm that.

MR WILLS:: Now this next section in paragraph 135: `The Strategies to Avenge the death of Constable Dunka'. Mr Mkhize and Mr Mhambo have testified. Do you confirm the evidence in that regard? Their evidence in that regard, as it relates to you?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I was present indeed.

MR WILLS:: There is just one thing that I want to highlight in this section and that comes from paragraph 136. You mentioned there that one of the persons involved was Themba Nkosi Mtetwe and this is the same Mr X, from your Criminal Trial. Is this one of the incidents where he assisted you people?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes.

MR WILLS:: Now you will see on paragraph 139 - Sorry I just want to go back. Page 138, you say that - Sorry, paragraph 138, page 184, you say that after this incident, the night attack, Kina reported to Mrs Mbuyazi what had been done and that she was very pleased. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct. She was with Chief Motaba.

MR WILLS:: Yes. Now I'm not going to deal with the attempt to kill Japi Tarliwe. This is one of the incidents that occurred at Bushbuck Ridge, so it does not concern the people here. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: And we will deal with that at a later stage. I want to touch on the story you relate about being hidden, to avoid arrest, and this commences on page 185 at paragraph 140. You say that you received a telephone call at Mrs Mbuyazi's house. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: Who telephoned you?

MR HLONGWANE:: It was MZ Khumalo.

MR WILLS:: And what did he tell you on the telephone?

MR HLONGWANE:: He told me that the Empangeni police were looking for me. They wanted to arrest me.

MR WILLS:: And so what happened? He told you to report to Ulundi. Is that not correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: I left eSikhawini for Ulundi and I spoke to MZ directly in his office, and he I spoke to him directly, that is MZ Khumalo. After having spoken to him, he then took me to Mangeti, that's a place. He actually took me to ...(indistinct), that's a shop. The shop belongs to Mr Mashubani.

MR WILLS:: Yes, why did he take you there? What was the purpose of you going to this area?

MR HLONGWANE:: I was been hidden away from the police.

MR WILLS:: Yes and you say in paragraph 141 that in the car, MZ praised you for the work you'd done and called you a real Inkatha soldier. Do you confirm that?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: And you confirm that for some weeks, you remained in this area hiding from the police, with other persons who were also hiding from the police. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: With two other persons and eventually, a third person well another person came after one had left. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: Now just to be clear, you were hiding with two boys, Themba Nkosi Ndlovu and Umlu, a person by the name of Umlu (I can't pronounce the surname) it's spelt Mgcoya.

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: And you lived in a tent in the bush, and that either MZ or his son, what was his son's - what was MZ's son's name, brought you food?

MR HLONGWANE:: Lalilani is his name. Lalilani Khumalo.

MR WILLS:: Right I want to turn to the incident that starts at paragraph 144 and on page 186. Now the incidents that we are going to talk about now, concern your operation in the Mandini area and the Silumbele area. Do you understand?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I do understand.

MR WILLS:: Now, in these areas, you weren't operating with the other members of the eSikhawini hit-squad. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: So essentially, you'd been taken out of the eSikhawini hit-squad at this period of your operations, and you were going to start operating in another area. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: So do I understand it then that from that point of time on, it was no longer your duty to report or to follow Mr Kina Mkhize's instruction.

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: And is it not so that to just digress very briefly, that you had been used quite extensively in a number of areas. For example, you had been used initially in the Mpumalanga area. When someone as efficient as you was needed in an area where Inkatha was needing some strength, you'd be transferred to that area. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: And can you just briefly tell us the areas where you operated in?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes.

MR WILLS:: You don't have to tell us what you did. I am not interested in that. All I am wanting you to tell the Committee and members of the public, are the areas in which you operated in.

MR HLONGWANE:: Mpumalanga, Mandini, eSikhawini and Ermelo, and also Mangeti, that is Chief Motaba's place.

MR WILLS:: I mean why did you go to these different areas. What caused you to go to these different areas?

MR HLONGWANE:: First of all, people cannot identify me. I can infiltrate the enemy and secondly, I can run faster. I look like a comrade. I also run faster than the rest of my comrades. Thirdly, I can jump the highest fences and I am also brave.

CHAIRMAN:: Did you, Mr Hlongwane, did you when you moved from one area to another, did you do that on instructions, or did you do that on your, out of your own choice?

MR HLONGWANE:: I would only follow instructions, a command.

MR WILLS:: Yes we know, for example, that you started your operations in Mpumalanga. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: Then you were instructed to go to Ermelo. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: And who instructed you to go to Ermelo?

MR HLONGWANE:: It was D Luthuli.

MR WILLS:: Yes, then you were in Ermelo and you received instructions to go to eSikhawini. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct indeed.

MR WILLS:: And who instructed you to go to eSikhawini?

MR HLONGWANE:: It was D Luthuli.

MR WILLS:: And when you were in eSikhawini, you received instructions to go to the Mangeti area. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: And who gave you those instructions to go to Mangeti?

MR HLONGWANE:: It was Mr MZ Khumalo.

MR WILLS:: Now, because you had moved out of the Mr Mkhize's jurisdiction, it seems that - how did you know what you were to do in this Mangeti area?

MR HLONGWANE:: Gerry Mdunda is not superior in the hit-squad. If Gerry Mdunda had issued an instruction, that would be the same as Kina had done.

MR WILLS:: Would it not be accurate to say that Gerry Mdunda had an area of operations that was different to Mr Mkhize's area?

MR HLONGWANE:: Gerry Mdunda would operate in all the places, all the areas.

MR WILLS:: Now why would you, on what authority would you listen to Mr Mdunda. Why would you listen to Gerry Mdunda. Who told you to listen to Gerry Mdunda. Why would you know that if he came, you were to listen to him?

MR HLONGWANE:: He was a member of the hit-squad and I knew fully well that he must have been instructed by MZ Khumalo. There is only one person who knew where he was in the bush, and that would be MZ Khumalo. He is the only person who could have sent him. I used to stay in a bush and nobody would have known where I was, unless a person who was instructed by MZ Khumalo; and people wanted to know what we were doing there and we indicated that we intended to build houses and, therefore, I knew that Gerry Mdunda must have been sent by MZ Khumalo.

MR WILLS:: Had you had any knowledge of Gerry Mdunda prior to him coming to see you in the bush?

MR HLONGWANE:: I knew him very well.

MR WILLS:: Tell us how you knew him.

MR HLONGWANE:: I knew that, for example, if a person was wanted, a person had to die. Gerry wouldn't mind spending three days sleeping in the car. He wouldn't mind three days sleeping in the car if he wanted to kill someone, and I knew that he was also a well known person, especially at Ulundi. He was an Inkatha hitman.

MR WILLS:: When did you first meet Mdunda? Can you recall?

MR HLONGWANE:: At Ulundi, very long ago. I cannot remember what year it was. That was at a conference.

MR WILLS:: And how did you know - how did you get personal knowledge that he was involved in these hit-squads?

MR HLONGWANE:: I was like a son to MZ Khumalo. We would discuss everything. I was actually his son and he would tell me that he had his boys, and I knew things about ...(indistinct) and things that were happening at some places.

MR WILLS:: So are you inferring that Mr MZ Khumalo told you about Gerry Mdunda?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes he did.

MR WILLS:: Okay, I want you to relate the incident where you tried to take out the - was it the Captain Msinga, at the Silumbele Police Station? Can you tell the Committee about this attempt?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I can. Gerry came to the tent. He was driving Chief Motaba's Cressida, blueish in colour. On arrival, he took me. We then went. I cannot remember when we went to Mbanza first and when we got there. If I am not mistaken, we went to Mbanza and then to the station. I had an AK-47 and Gerry was going to walk into the office and check as to whether he was there, and if he was in the office, I would walk into the Police Station and shoot him there; and when Gerry came back and told me that he did not find him and that's how he managed not to be - that's how we did not manage to get hold of him.

MR WILLS:: But didn't you think that if you walked into a Police Station and shot someone in the Police Station, you'd be arrested? I mean surely that's a very silly place to conduct an assassination.

MR HLONGWANE:: At that time, all the police in the Kwa Zulu Police Force were our comrades. I would not be arrested. I would hit him at a Police Station in Kwa Zulu, and I therefore would not be arrested.

MR WILLS:: Do you know who was in charge of that Police Station?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I know. It was Major Owen Nzama.

MR WILLS:: And do you know anything about this person, Major Nzama, what his role was in these operations, if he had any?

MR HLONGWANE:: He was an Inkatha, that I know, and he also used to work with people like Victor of the hit-squad at Mandini; and I therefore know that he was an Inkatha member, even though I did not work with him personally. But I know that he was working for Inkatha, for a very long time.

MR WILLS:: Who is this Victor you refer to?

MR HLONGWANE:: Victor is a police who was trained by the 200 men, the Caprivians.

MR WILLS:: And where was this Victor stationed?

MR HLONGWANE:: He was stationed at Mandini. That is where he was killing people.

MR WILLS:: Was he a member of the Kwa Zulu Police Station at Silumbele?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: And just for the clarification of the Committee, Silumbele is a township which is just outside of Mandini. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: It is a township right inside Mandini.

MR WILLS:: Yes, thank you. I just want to - you say that you and Gerry had a meeting with Nkosi Motaba, Shakes Mhlonga. Who was Shakes Mhlonga?

MR HLONGWANE:: Shakes Mhlonga was in charge of Inkatha at Mandini.

MR WILLS:: And what did you discuss at this meeting?

MR HLONGWANE:: We were discussing killing people.

MR WILLS:: So, did these people know what you intended to do later, i.e. with reference to the attempt on Captain Msinga?

MR HLONGWANE:: They knew very well. Everybody knew.

MR WILLS:: Okay, I want to now turn to the incident that starts at your paragraph 148 page 187 of the record, and it concerns the murder of an ANC member, Gindinga. Do you recall - okay, can you just tell the members of the public and the Committee what happened there?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I can explain. Gindinga, I was told -we were told that Gindinga was troublesome at school and therefore, but I did not know which school exactly, whether Odumo or another one. There was a house at Mandini where it was alleged, or where - that is number 45, that is where you'd find this ANC comrades. What Gindinga did was that he would take these boys, in the absence of his mother, and he would eat every food, all the food with the boys and I was just told I had to go and kill him.

MR WILLS:: Who told you this?

MR HLONGWANE:: It was Shakes, Gadebi, because they said Gindinga's mother - I know Gindinga's mother - she is a famous IFP leader. I am saying here that Gindinga - I was instructed to kill him and the instruction came from Shakes and Gadebi, saying that it was his mother who instructed that he be killed. I know Gindinga's mother and she knows me too.

MR WILLS:: I see ...

CHAIRMAN:: Please keep quiet.

MR WILLS:: So it's apparent from your evidence and this is an important aspect for the - which must be cleared up before the Committee, that you obviously conducted many operations and that from your evidence, you've got - you seem to have received instructions from a broad range of people. Now for example, I just want you to tell us who were the types of people that had the authority to give you instructions to conduct these operations. In what positions did they occupy?

MR HLONGWANE:: It was people like Councillors, Mayors, prominent members of Inkatha, Amakosi.

MR WILLS:: Now why did you listen to these people?

MR HLONGWANE:: For the reason that I also wanted my political party to succeed. We thought that at one point or one day, the Inkatha Freedom Party will become the Government of the day.

CHAIRMAN:: So Mr Hlongwane, are you saying that in this case you were told by Gadebi and Shakes Mhlonga to kill because the victim's mother had asked that her own son be killed, because he was eating all the food together with young ANC boys?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct, but I would like to explain this further. I don't know if I can continue explaining this issue?

CHAIRMAN:: Yes.

MR HLONGWANE:: Thereafter, Shakes took me - I don't remember whether it was Shakes or Gadebi, but when we actually killed him, I was with Shakes. Gadebi told me that Shakes was going to identify this boy to me. We went to the shop. A shop called Renkins and he showed me the boy. The boy went into the shop and then came out. I looked for this boy for a while and we didn't find him. One day I was with Shakes in a location called Chippies. We were at a shebeen and Shakes told me that Gindinga was there at the shebeen. We waited for him outside. When he came out I saw him. He was with another boy and then I shot him. Afterwards we left. The important thing that I was also present at his funeral. His mother was telling us to hurry. I was surprised when I heard that his mother alleged that she didn't know anything about his death, whereas in fact she did know.

CHAIRMAN:: Please be quiet.

MR HLONGWANE:: When the food was brought to us by the Empangeni office, a goat or sheep was brought. Gindinga's mother took the food and that beasts and throw them out. We attended the funeral. After the funeral she gave us a few beers and we drank, and then we dispersed. I know for a fact that she did not care. She was in fact pleased about the death of her son.

MS KHAMPEPE:: Mr Hlongwane was there ever an occasion when you were specifically instructed or requested by Gindinga's mother to kill him? Did you understand my question or should I repeat it?

MR HLONGWANE:: I understand the question. No ...(indistinct) about the death of her son. We had never discussed the matter.

MS KHAMPEPE:: So there was never an occasion when you were specifically instructed or requested by Gindinga's mother to kill Gindinga?

MR HLONGWANE:: No. What I do know is that she knew about the case, his death, but she didn't speak to me directly.

MS KHAMPEPE:: So the instructions came from Shakes and Gadebi only?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is true.

MR WILLS:: Thank you Mr Hlongwane. We are following on from the questioning by the Committee Member. I refer you to the bottom of page 187 where you say that Shakes took you to Renkin Spar in Mandini where Gindinga's mother, Coty, worked. She was a strong supporter of the IFP. She told me that her son Gindinga was troubling her in the sense that he brought ANC boys to her home and finished all her food. She told me that I should kill her son for her as he was an ANC supporter. Are you telling us that this part of your Affidavit is in fact incorrect. It must be in relation to the questions asked by the Committee Member?

MR HLONGWANE:: What I remember is what I have said. If this is how the statement was written, it must have been a mistake. I only spoke to Shakes and Gadebi.

MR WILLS:: Thank you. I refer you now to paragraph 149, Instructions from IFP Mandini Leaders. Now you refer in that paragraph to Bongani Hadebi, Shakes Mhlonga, Nkosi Motaba, a person Mpanza and Gerry Mdanda, and you refer to these people who were the Inkatha leaders at Mandini and who had provided you with a list of persons that you had to kill. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: That is correct. Yes.

MR WILLS:: And you say there were about 15 people on this list but you cannot remember all the names?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: Now it seems to me from having dealt with the Ermelo incidents, that this is very similar to the set-up that happened to you in Ermelo - the same thing. When you went to Ermelo you met with the local leadership, the IFP leadership in Ermelo and they also were the ones who identified the people who had to die. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: That's correct.

MR WILLS:: And that in essence, the same happened in Mandini, I'm sorry, in eSikhawini. You went to eSikhawini and the local leadership would be the persons who would be responsible for identifying these people?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: Now who else knew about this other than the local leadership. Who knew about your operations?

MR HLONGWANE:: MZ Khumalo, Gideon Zulu - they all knew.

MR WILLS:: How do you know that they knew?

MR HLONGWANE:: It must be remembered that MZ Khumalo used to work closely with the special branch and the special branch reported to MZ Khumalo about everything that happened. That is how I know.

MR WILLS:: Did you have direct dealings with these persons that you've mentioned where these matters were raised?

MR HLONGWANE:: Which people are you talking about?

MR WILLS:: MZ Khumalo.

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I was very close to MZ Khumalo.

MR WILLS:: Gideon Zulu?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes, yes, I was close to him.

MR WILLS:: And we've had evidence from Mr Luthuli that he knew what you were doing?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes he knew very well.

MR WILLS:: You killed the Khumalo boy in Mandini. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: That's correct.

MR WILLS:: You say that you followed him to Island Township in Mandini where he was visiting a girlfriend?

MR HLONGWANE:: That's correct.

MR WILLS:: You say this Khumalo boy appeared on this list?

MR HLONGWANE:: That's correct.

MR WILLS:: You fired your piston and the girlfriend ran away and you killed this Khumalo boy. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: That's correct.

MR WILLS:: You say that the girl was hit in the arm. Do you mean that she was shot in the arm?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes, she was close to this boy and when I fired a shot it hit her arm and then when she ran away, I could then kill the boy.

MR WILLS:: Now you yourself didn't know anything about this boy Khumalo. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: All the people that I killed, I did not know. I was just told who to kill and I would do so. I did not have any argument with them, I would just be told who to kill and then I would go and kill, because if I did not do this people like Mdlanduna would have killed me.

MR WILLS:: Okay I want to refer now to the incident that occurs at paragraph 151. Now that is the killing of the Nduna on the orders of Chief Motaba. Do you confirm what Mr Mkhize said in relation to this incident?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I do confirm.

MR WILLS:: It is essentially that this instruction was given because this Nduna was troublesome to Chief Motaba and you confirm that you participated in the death of this Nduna?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes, yes, I was involved.

MR WILLS:: And you confirm that you reported back to Motaba after this person was killed where he indicated that he was very pleased with you?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes he was very pleased.

MR WILLS:: I want you to turn now to paragraph 152 where there is an attack on an Nduna Sishe. Can you tell us what happened there?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I can. One day I was walking around Mandini and I met Chief Motaba and he told me he'd been looking for me for a long time. He told me that there were boys who were busy burning peoples' houses down in his area. He said I should look for these people and kill them.

MR WILLS:: Why did Motaba approach you. Why didn't he go to somebody else?

MR HLONGWANE:: Because I was an IFP soldier. It was my duty to kill the opponents of Inkatha. He came to me because he knew that I killed people who troubled Inkatha.

MR WILLS:: Can you continue?

MR HLONGWANE:: Thereafter if I'm not mistaken Motaba said he was going to speak to Geda his driver who then came to fetch me and then I went to Chief Motaba. Geda was driving a 4 x 4. On arrival there was Geda and another boy from Hammarsdale, Ledidi Mosha and Bonga Nkosi from eSikhawini, Olani and another coloured boy from Mangeta called Duncan. I don't remember his surname.

MR WILLS:: You've recorded in your Affidavit, Duncan Dunn. Is that the correct surname?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is the one. We all met at Chief Motaba's place.

MR WILLS:: Was this attack discussed where you met?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes we did and Duncan went to buy petrol from the garage.

MR WILLS:: Yes carry on.

MR HLONGWANE:: We ...

MR WILLS:: Yes carry on Mr Hlongwane. Look I realise that you have to think about these incidents and that's good. You must take the time to think to the best of your memory, what happened. We are wanting to know to the best of your memory what happened. So just please carry on and try and tell us if you can remember what happened in this incident.

MR HLONGWANE:: We were using Chief Motaba's car and Duncan was using his own car. I was in charge of that operation and the boy who was supposed to identify the houses was Geda, Chief Motaba's driver. We left and then he showed us around the area and had identified the houses for us. The Nduna Sishe was opposed to IFP policies as was alleged by Chief Motaba and he was apparently advising people not to follow the orders issued by the Chief. So we started burning the houses down. On returning there a White boy came, in fact he was chasing us and we were followed by a van, a police van, into Chief Motaba's house. When we had entered the house this White policeman followed us. He went to the car and felt that it was warm and he enquired who was using the car, but Chief Motaba reprimanded him heavily and chased him away. That man left and went back to Nyoni. I left on the same night and returned to my place.

MR WILLS:: Yes, so that night you didn't actually kill this Nduna because he wasn't there. Is that right? You just burned houses down?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes we just burned houses.

CHAIRMAN:: So can you give an indication as to how many houses were burned down that night?

MR HLONGWANE:: There were two groups, one commanded by myself and one commanded by Duncan. There were a lot of houses that were burned down.

CHAIRMAN:: When you say a lot, what are you talking about? Three or four or more?

MR HLONGWANE:: About six to eight.

CHAIRMAN:: Six to eight? Do you know if anybody died as a result of those attacks?

MR HLONGWANE:: No we didn't find anybody.

CHAIRMAN:: Mr Wills, I see that it's eleven. I don't know if you find this a convenient time to adjourn. If not, we can carry on.

MR WILLS:: Yes it is a convenient time. I will move onto the next incident. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRMAN:: We will now take the tea adjournment.

HEARING ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRMAN:: Yes thank you. Mr Wills you may proceed.

I H HLONGWANE: (s.u.o.)

MR WILLS:: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Hlongwane there is just one thing I want to clear up and I'm sorry. I must refer you back to page 187 `The Murder of ANC Member Gendinga'. I just want you to clarify to this Committee why this person was killed, if you knew.

MR HLONGWANE:: He was killed because he was an ANC member.

MR WILLS:: Thank you. Alright, let's return to where we were, that is at page 190 paragraph 153, the section `Attack on Cosatu Mandini Official'. Have you got that bit? Now here you talk about a person who you killed as a Mr Shandu.

MR HLONGWANE:: I remember.

MR WILLS:: Can you tell us the circumstances surrounding this incident?

MR HLONGWANE:: I didn't know Mr Shandu at the time. He was a member of Cosatu which was known to be an ANC wing. Shandu was troublesome to Woza because he recruited their members. Chief Motaba then said that he should be killed. Indeed Motaba provided me with one boy called ...(indistinct) Zulu and Shakes Mhlongo, as well as Panza. We then proceeded to go kill him and we were using Chief Motaba's Cressida. When we got to his place, I knocked and nobody answered. I was then forced to break the window and we poured petrol into the house; then he came out of the house and then I shot him. After shooting him, cartridges were left on the scene of the crime. I was using Chief Motaba's gun and their cartridges were left at the scene. We then returned to our place.

MR WILLS:: What happened to Chief Motaba's firearm?

MR HLONGWANE:: If I remember correctly there was a member of the SAP who was Chief Motaba's friend. His surname I do not remember. This person apparently told Motaba that his gun was implicated in that murder. I don't remember if Chief Motaba's - the person who informed Chief Motaba about his gun worked at Nyoni. As I said I don't remember his surname. I was informed that I had killed the right person indeed. I think his surname might have been Hughes.

MR WILLS:: Yes, okay. You say that at the bottom of that paragraph - you say that you remember Motaba telling you that the firearm was linked ballistically to the death of this person. He said that he had arranged with some policeman at Nyoni to sort it out for him. Indeed this firearm was returned to him sometime later. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes, in fact Motaba has the gun.

MR WILLS:: Nyoni to my understanding, is an SAP Police Station. It's not a Kwa Zulu Police Station. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: That's correct.

MR WILLS:: And the Police Station at Silumbele is a Kwa Zulu Police Station and not an SAP station. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: That's correct.

MR WILLS:: You talk about, in paragraph 154 `Further Attacks on ANC Members in the Mandini area', and in this incident you refer to the attack on this one person by the name of Nleko. Do you remember that incident?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I do.

MR WILLS:: Please tell the Committee and members of the public what happened.

MR HLONGWANE:: We held meetings several times at Banda's place. His house number was number 13. We used to call Banda ...(indistinct). We would hold meetings to discuss the killing of people at Mandini, at his house. On one occasion, there was a discussion that Mr Ngleco - I have a picture of him in my mind. I learned that he worked at SAPI. I knew him and we knew his movements. At that time Chief Motaba had fetched some boys from ...(indistinct). Those boys were `AK's and Temba'. Those were code names and were not their real names. So AK and Temba were just code names given to these boys. After the meeting, when I was supposed to go and monitor or investigate his house, I did so and on arrival, I saw a lot of boys coming out of the house and I asked something from them, and in the afternoon I met Chief Motaba and told him that I had met a large group of boys in that house. I then told Chief Motaba, on the same day, that we would attack on that very same evening. Chief Motaba came with...

MS KHAMPEPE:: Mr Hlongwane, I think the translator was finding it very difficult to keep up with your pace. Your pace is quite fast. Mr Hlongwane, so that the interpretation can be transferred to English, we will also request you to speak loudly, that members of the public can hear you. Thank you.

MR HLONGWANE:: I apologise.

CHAIRMAN:: Yes Mr Wills, you may proceed.

MR WILLS:: Yes, thank you. Mr Hlongwane, you were in the process of telling us what happened about the attack on Ngleco. You say that you eventually went to his house with Temba and a person by the name of AK. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes.

MR WILLS:: And can you tell us what happened then?

MR HLONGWANE:: Mr Ngleco was supposed to knock off work late, so we waited outside his house. The guys that I was with seemed to be a bit tipsy because I had to wake them up several times. They were sleeping. I had a knife and then I woke them up. On doing so we looked around and we waited for him to approach the gate. As he was just about to approach his gate, he was with other people. We came out of our hiding place and we greeted him. He became suspicious. What I noticed of that Mr Ngleco, he had some sort of brick or stone because when one of the boys raised his arm to aim at him, he hit him with a brick on the head, and the gun that Temba had was a revolver, a 38 revolver, belonging to Shakes. When he was hit by a brick, I retreated and drew my gun. Temba fell and the gun fell away. I grabbed Temba and Mr Ngleco started running away. I did not fire my gun but I know that the others did fire. I dragged Temba and I hid him among some flowers. I went back to Chief Motaba's place. As I got there...

CHAIRMAN:: Sorry, please be quiet. Sorry can you just repeat that Mr Hlongwane? Can you just say that again, I didn't hear with the noise. You said you went back.

MR HLONGWANE:: I went back and I found Chief Motaba drinking Hunter's Gold Cider. I told him that the boy, Temba, was hit. He reprimanded me. I told him that you had said that the boys were sharp. We then got into his car and went to the Silumbele Police Station. On arrival there, there was a policeman, light in complexion. I have forgotten his surname. This policeman knew me and he greeted me. On that day this policeman was on duty. He went into the van and I went with him, and we returned to Mr Ngleco's house. I was asked to identify Ngleco's house. I went there and I looked for the gun, and I couldn't find it. At that time the policeman was speaking to Mr Ngleco, enquiring about the incident and at that time I was looking for the gun outside, and I couldn't find it. Thereafter I went to Chief Motaba. We never found the gun thereafter.

MR WILLS:: Did the policeman that accompanied you to Ngleco's house, know what you'd been up to earlier that evening?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes he knew that we were going there to look for the gun.

MR WILLS:: No my question was, did he know that you'd been responsible for an attack at that house earlier the evening, and the circumstances surrounding the loss of the firearm?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes he did. Chief Motaba had told him the entire story.

MR WILLS:: You mention, on page 192 paragraph 156, `An Attack on a House at 45 Silumbele'.

MR HLONGWANE:: That's correct.

MR WILLS:: Can you tell us what happened on this attack?

MR HLONGWANE:: As I was still in the process of identifying houses to the IFP group from Johannesburg, Chief Motaba came to me and said I should go show them number 45. This house was the place where ANC meetings were held. I don't remember whether we fetched a White Kombi from ...(indistinct). I think we used the Kombi, the Mitsubishi and Chief Motaba was driving it. We went along the road and we passed the house and we stopped near the BIC and, at that time, we alighted and walked on foot, and approached the house from above. There were people standing at the gate and we attacked those people first. One of them fell and the rest ran away. Thereafter we went into the premises. There was a motorbike, a big motorbike in front of the kitchen. It was dragged and burned. We could not burn the house but we ...(indistinct). Chief Motaba then took us back to eSikhawini.

CHAIRMAN:: Mr Hlongwane, you said you attacked the people at the gate. How did you attack them?

MR HLONGWANE:: We shot at them.

MR WILLS:: Mr Hlongwane, I just want to clarify something here. This Kombi you referred to, is that the same Kombi that was sometimes used in operations in eSikhawini?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes it's the very same one.

MR WILLS:: This is the one that was fitted with the ZG Plates?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is the one.

MR WILLS:: You mention in paragraph 158, on page 193 about some boys at the Tugela High School, who were causing problems for IFP persons at the High School.

MR HLONGWANE:: Can you please repeat the question?

MR WILLS:: I refer you to page 193 paragraph 158. You say that one day when you were in Mandini, one boy Bongani Hadebe told me that some boys at their school, Tugela High School, were harrassing children belong to the IFP and assaulting them.

MR HLONGWANE:: IFP boys were being harrassed by the ANC.

MR WILLS:: Yes, and what did you do as a result of that?

MR HLONGWANE:: Bongani told me that I should attack those boys because they were on a trip or an outing, and IFP children were told not to go. It was only ANC boys who went on this outing. So we attacked these boys near Behla.

MR WILLS:: I'm not sure, it might be a typographical error here again Ms Committee Member. Was that at a place called Duck City or Dark City?

MR HLONGWANE:: No, if I remember correctly Duck City and Behla are two different places. The ANC boys went towards Duck City.

MR WILLS:: And did you attack them there?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes.

MR WILLS:: And four boys died as a result of this attack. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: And who were you with when you conducted this attack?

MR HLONGWANE:: I was with one boy who worked at Spar.

MR WILLS:: What was his name?

MR HLONGWANE:: I don't remember whether it was Gigi or Moosa. I think ...

CHAIRMAN:: Quiet please.

MR HLONGWANE:: When I mentioned guns, I will have a problem. I'll ask for pardon from the Commission because we used code names for different weapons.

MR WILLS:: On that attack Mr Hlongwane, is it true that you used an R1 and Gigi used a shotgun for this operation?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is true.

MR WILLS:: You are referring to paragraph 159 now. You say that Mdlanduna phoned you some time when you were in eSikhawini and told you to go and guard, Nawoosa's house at Eshowe. Is this Nawoosa Prince Gideon's driver.

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is so.

MR WILLS:: And is he the same person who testified in your Trial when he tried to explain the reasons for you being given that Opel Monza car. Can you remember if he testified at the Trial?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes he is the one.

MR WILLS:: Now - sorry. If the Committee can just bear with me very briefly. You say whilst you were at ... guarding Nawoosa's house, the house was attacked. Is that correct? And you assisted in the repelling of the attack. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: Now, we are at page 194 now, paragraph 161 and that deals with the `Kidnapping and Murder of Nati Gumedi.' I don't want to deal with that incident because it's been dealt with extensively by other witnesses. Do you confirm what has been said in relation to your activities in that killing. You confirm having participated in the killing of Nati Gumedi?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes.

MR WILLS:: And you confirm what the report of that as given by the two previous witnesses, Mkhize and Mhambo?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes.

MR WILLS:: And in relation to the murder of the four youths, one of whom was Befana Jeli, who you knew as Mdanda, at Paul ...indistinct) shebeen. Mr Mhambo has given evidence in that regard. Do you confirm the information given by Mr Mhambo.

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes.

MR WILLS:: And do you also confirm that you also participated in the killing of these boys by using a shotgun?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: Now, just - was anything taken from these boys after they died?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes.

MR WILLS:: Tell the Committee what this was.

MR HLONGWANE:: Romeo removed an AK-47 from Mdanda and I removed two 9mm pistols which had fell from these boys. The other one had a knife, but we left it there. We took the guns with us.

MR WILLS:: Yes, now I want to turn to the murder of Sargeant Dlamini. It's at page 166, sorry paragraph 166 page 195. Again, both Mr Mhambo and Mr Mkhize have given evidence in regard to this murder. Do you confirm what they said in relation to your involvement?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes.

MR WILLS:: In fact what they said is you were the person who actually killed Sargeant Dlamini. You pulled the trigger that was responsible for the fatal shot. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that's correct.

MR WILLS:: Can you just take the issue from there because I know that Sargeant Dlamini's relatives are here today. Can you tell us what happened from the time you were inside Sargeant Dlamini's house, to the time that you killed him. Can you tell us what happened?

MR HLONGWANE:: When we arrived at Sargeant Dlamini's house, people who were present was myself, Romeo and Kina, and Stefano. Just the four of us.

MR WILLS:: Sorry Mr Hlongwane, you must listen to my question. We know who was there, there is no doubt about that. What I'm simply asking you is not to tell me about the whole incident. We have heard about that on two occasions. I'm just asking you to tell me about what happened from the time you were already inside the house, until Sargeant Dlamini was killed.

MR HLONGWANE:: Sargeant Dlamini insulted us for the entire time. At some point he kept quiet and he moved and we could therefore ascertain his position. Then we started shooting. When I got into the house I was in front of Romeo and I arrived at his bedroom first. When he tried to get out of the room, I pulled the trigger and he fell. After that we went out of the room and Romeo asked me if I was sure that he had died. I took ...(indistinct) Mtetwe's 9mm pistol and returned into the house, and I fired another shot. Thereafter we left. Kina was not there when Sargeant Dlamini was killed.

MR WILLS:: Yes, now what's this Mtetwe, Temba Nkosi Mtetwe. Would you regard him as being an active participant in this killing?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes he was involved.

MR WILLS:: I want to turn now to page 197 paragraph 171. Now this is the murder of the Cosatu Bus Driver by the name of Jali, and this is an incident to which Mr Mkhize has referred. Mr Mkhize's evidence is to the effect that it was an assassination on the instruction again of Chief Motaba, and that you were involved together with Mkhize and others in this assassination. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is true.

MR WILLS:: And what Mr Mkhize said about this incident, do you confirm?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes, yes.

MR WILLS:: Now we return to Mandini at page 198 and paragraph 173, where there was an incident concerning members of the Majenga family. Do you recall that incident?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I do.

MR WILLS:: Now we haven't heard any evidence about this. The Commission hasn't heard anything about this. Can you tell us what happened?

MR HLONGWANE:: Amongst the meeting that we held at 13, Majenga's family was regarded as an ANC family, so that if you attacked any person belonging to that house, you would have hit the ANC. Bongani Hadebe, Shakes Mhlongo and Banza knew about the death of all these people. I am not the person who killed everybody from the Majenga family. One of these other people that I have mentioned were also involved in the killing of other members from the Majenga family.

MR WILLS:: Yes, you've indicated that there was one of these boys who you followed one night. Can you just tell us what happened. One of the boys from this family?

MR HLONGWANE:: I was from the Silumbele Police Station to pay my friends a visit, Victor Mia and Philake Ngcobo. Those were also Caprivians. They knew what was going on at Mandini. As I was going out through the gate, the boy who was in my company, identified this Majenga boy and this Majenga boy had realised that we were following him, and he took a turn and walked into a house that was near a Police Station; he came out with a girl and started to look around. We were hiding somewhere, we were still looking at them. They wanted to walk through the school and he was approaching us, he was not aware and that is where we hit him.

MR WILLS:: You shot him? You didn't hit him. You shot him with a 9mm pistol?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes. I cannot remember exactly what pistol it was.

MR WILLS:: Do you know if he died as a result of the incident, or not?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes I know.

CHAIRMAN:: Did he die?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes, yes, he died.

MR WILLS:: The next incident that I want to refer to starts at paragraph 177, page 199. It's an incident whereby you and your cohort Kulani, accidently shot Mr Abraham Mbuyazi and I take that, that is Mrs Mbuyazi's husband. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: Now this person was paralysed as a result of this attack. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE:: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS:: Now the only thing that I want you to testify, in regard to this incident, is what did Mrs Mbuyazi say to you when you approached her and told her about this incident?

MR HLONGWANE:: After this accidental shot, we went to Romeo first and we found him in the company of Silas Nteli. We took him in Silas's car; we went to the clinic at H and an ambulance was called, and we took him to Richards Bay. And we proceeded, myself with Romeo, going to Mrs Mbuyazi and reported to her what accident had happened, so that her husband was shot. We all heard voices where we shot him accidently, and we thought the voices were the voices of the people who were about to attack us; and Kulani shot him with my Magnum and he fell; and on explaining this to Mrs Mbuyazi, she requested that we lower our voices. We indicated that Mr Mbuyazi was now injured, and she wanted to know whether he was dead. That was the first thing she wanted to know, and we indicated that `no, he was in hospital'; and she said we should not tell anybody. That would be something we had to keep between ourselves.

CHAIRMAN:: Please be quiet.

MR HLONGWANE:: The following day, we went to the hospital and on arrival Mbuyazi said: `...(indistinct) I heard your voice, but I know that it was a mistake. My boy I forgive you.' I was in the company of Romeo and he said: `I forgive you,' and he shook my hand.

MR WILLS:: Yes, why do you think - why was it that Mrs Mbuyazi said that you shouldn't report this to anybody and you should keep quiet about it. Do you know why she said that? Sorry, I'm wanting to know why Mrs Mbuyazi asked you to keep this incident quiet. Do you know the reason for that or not?

MR HLONGWANE:: As a person with a very cold heart, as a woman who had a cold heart I then would say what exactly she said. But I remember that she indicated that this should be kept between ourselves.

MR WILLS: Okay Mr Hlongwane I want to refer you to paragraph 180 on page 200. Now this concerns some home-made pipe bombs.

MR HLONGWANE: I remember that. I know that.

MR WILLS: Can you tell us about these pipe bombs and what you did with them and who gave them to you?

MR HLONGWANE: They were given to us by Mr Pipi Biyela saying we should use the bombs to attack ANC houses. We had to attack all places where there were ANC members because there is a woman who used to drive a car called Thanduxulo and she is the who would go around identifying the places that we had to attack.

MR WILLS: Was this in eSikiweni?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes it was eSikiweni.

MR WILLS: And did you in fact use these bombs?

MR HLONGWANE: On the first day of the arrival of the bombs Lucky and I went to the beach. They exploded such that we realised that they were dangerous. They are not like M1 or M26. You would light this piece of string and it would explode different from the ordinary bombs. Instead of exploding upwards it would explode downward. Tabeli was the driver and Lucky Mbajuwa who is a police now at Ulundi.

MR WILLS: Yes I think Mr Hlongwane do you know did anybody die? You say in your affidavit that you would throw these bombs at houses. Is that correct? Did you in fact throw these bombs at houses in eSikiweni?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is exactly what we did.

MR WILLS: And you say that: "I am not sure if anybody died during these attacks." Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And you say: "These attacks took place at various places in eSikiweni township and I am able to identify 3 such targets." Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: So if the police were to take you to eSikiweni today you would be able to point those out to people?

MR HLONGWANE: I still remember some scenes not all of them but others I still remember very well. There are only a few incidences or scenes that I can identify because that was my job anyway. That was the kind of job that I was doing as a member of the hit squad.

CHAIRMAN: Did these bombs cause damage to the houses that you threw them at? Did the bombs cause damage and if so what was the extent of the damage? Was it small damage or did it destroy the houses? What sort of damage did the houses cause to the houses?

MR HLONGWANE: These bombs exploded such that they would bore the floor. They would competely destroy the floor. It looks like they were manufactured specifically for mine usage or usage at the mine to carck rocks. So that windows and the walls were not necessarily damaged but the floor and everything that was on the floor. That is how I can put it.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Hlongwane I think you have not responded to Mr Wills questioned when he asked you whether you would be in a position to identify the 3 targets that you have stated in your affidavit to have to be able to identify.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I can identify some of the three, some of the houses among the three.

MR WILLS: Thank you members of the Committee. Mr Hlongwane the final incident that you record in this long sorry tale is the incident involving the shooting at persons spray painting a sign in eSikiweni. Can you remember that incident?

MR HLONGWANE: I remember that very well.

MR WILLS: Can you tell the Committee and members of the public about that incident?

MR HLONGWANE: The Mayor, Mr Pipi Biyela together with Mrs Mbuyazi they bought sprays and they said that we were going to spray the roads, you know give them IFP names such as Bambata Road.

MR WILLS: Sorry. Mr Hlongwane I get the message from the members of the gallery that they not hearing you. Can you try and speak up a little bit?

MR HLONGWANE: The major, Mr Pipi Biyela and Mrs Lindiwe Mbuyazi bought sprays, the kind of sprays that are used for graffiti. And they said we were going to give these streets names such as Bambata, Battalion, IFP and we did that. The mayor brought the sprays and we did that. We started spraying at, the people at eSikiweni know the place, it is a bus stop called eSthlageni, just before the mayor's house. That is where we started spray painting and we proceeded towards the mayor's place and continued further down. That angered the mayor and he indicated that we should spray paint and wait there. And some boys who had come to delete the names came and we started beating them up. And we started shooting at the boys. We used Mr Biyela's vehicle and it was driven by Thanduxulu. Lucky Mbanju and myself were doing the spray painting. The car would drop us at a point, we would remain behind spray painting and the car would pick us up later. And that is how we proceeded.

MR WILLS: Do you know when you shot at these boys I see that there were some serious firearms used. You again used your 357 Magnum and Lucky used either a shot gun or a pistol. Do you know if any of these boys were injured or killed when you shot?

MR HLONGWANE: They were very close. I can say that they died. We were leaning against an electric transmitter I think. That is when we hit them, that is when we shot at them. I want to believe that definitely they must have died.

CHAIRMAN: How many boys were there Mr Hlongwane that you shot at?

MR HLONGWANE: There were about 2 or 3 but it was certainly not 1 person. These were people who had come to delete what we were writing.

CHAIRMAN: And when you say they were boys, were they young boys, little kids or young men?

MR HLONGWANE: No these were youngsters like myself. They were just of my same size then.

MS KHAMPEPE: And how old were you then?

MR HLONGWANE: What year is this by the way?

MS KHAMPEPE: 1992, 1993.

MR HLONGWANE: I was about, I am 30 years now. I think therefore I might have been 26 or so. I cannot be sure.

MR WILLS: Yes Mr Hlongwane I am wanting to conclude your evidence now. It seems to me that you started getting involved in these murderous activities at a very young age. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: I was actually 16 years.

CHAIRMAN: Quiet please.

MR WILLS: Is it not so that you continued for in these activities for at least a period of some 8 years? From 1985 to the point of your arrest in December 1993?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And in that time you have killed many, many people is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: And it is also correct that you cannot even remember the names of the people, of many of the people that you have killed. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now there, the people from eSikiweni are here and I believe there are some people from Mandini here as well today. Do you want to say anything to them as a result of your activities in the eSikiweni and northern Natal region?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes. I would like to apologize unreservedly even though they may regard me as a beast. But what I would like for them to do is to look at the Inkata and National Party government, these were the people in power or position and if these people give you instructions you would not have objected because that would endanger your life and that of your family. There is therefore so many people that I have killed.

CHAIRMAN: Please be quiet, let Mr Hlongwane continue. Please let the witness continue.

MR WILLS: Mr Hlongwane are you in a position to continue or do you require a 5 minute break? I ask for a 5 minute break at this stage? Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRMAN: We will take a short 5 to 10 minute adjournment and then we will reconvene and continue.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Mr Wills are you ready to continue with Mr Hlongwane?

MR WILLS: Yes thank you Mr Chairperson. I express my appreciation for that indulgence.

CHAIRMAN: I notice Mr Stewart is not here. Is he around or can we start without him?

MR WILLS: I presume we can start Mr Chairperson. I have asked somebody to advise him that we are proceeding.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

MR WILLS: Mr Hlongwane we got to the conclusion of all the events that you described. Now my understanding is that since your arrest you have participated extensively in various investigations done by various people, mainly policemen in regard to giving information about the large number of cases that you are aware of. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Is it not so that in this regard that you have from an early stage spoken to the Goldstone Commission?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: You sat down with Mr Vany of the TRC and you spent weeks with him going through all of your dealings and telling him as much as you could remember about them. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Sorry that was Mr Vany of the ITU, the Investigative Task Unit, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: You also spent some time with Colonel Marion and Colonel Dutton and you told them about everything you knew about these incidents. Is that correct.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: You met with a special advocate who was attached to the Attorney General's investigative team of Pretoria and you told them all about your incidents in Ermelo and you assisted and are going to be used as a State witness in Ermelo. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: You in fact flew in a helicopter with Mr Vany and others and you went to a particular, you pointed out a particular bush camp north of Ulundi that was still operating. Is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct, it was the Mpolozi Camp.

MR WILLS: And as a result of your intervention in that regard this camp was closed down. Is that right? It is because it was found out. It was a secret camp prior to this.

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And can you remember who was at that camp?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I remember the people who were found at the camp. We found Mr Philip Powell, Smubengu, another boy whose code name was Swatekisi. Two boys were arrested, Philip Powell was found with ammunition in his car but he was never charged and arrested. The weapons which we found there, weapons like G3's and shot guns were (...indistinct) All those weapons were then taken in by the ITU. The Umfolozi base was then closed down but nobody has been charged or arrested for it. And no one has come to take statements from me. I was with Captain Scotts. We spent some nights at Ituba. The two boys who had been arrested were released the following day. We left that place and that was the end of the case.

MR WILLS: Yes and is it not so that up until this point in time that Umfolozi Camp was another of these secretive camps is that righ? Nobody knew about it?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: By that I mean the authorities did not know about it?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes they did not know.

MR WILLS: It was only the IFP authorities that knew about this camp is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes they were the only ones who knew.

MR WILLS: Now is it also not so that you are prepared to assist any investigator from whatever quarter he comes in order to give information in order that the large amount of crimes can be solved, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: And since your arrest there has not been one occasion where you have refused to assist the many requests that have been made on you to provide information?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR WILLS: Now why have you been all of these, why have you been assisting so many investigative teams?

MR HLONGWANE: The reason for doing this is that I do not want other people to find themselves in the same situation as we did. The government in collaboration with Inkata used us to kill these people. Therefore I am prepared to fight such violent crimes until the day that I die. I will do this in every possible way that I can. That is my objective.

MR WILLS: Yes, now is it not true as well that you are a member of the IFP Prisoners' Committee, this committee which Mr Mbambo chairs in the prison and that you are working in this committee to foster reconciliation between the prisoners at the prison in Westville?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson and members of the Committee. That concludes my evidence in chief.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Wills. Mr Stewart do you have any questions to ask this witness?

MR STEWART: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Hlongwane I want to take you back and remind you of the incident you told us about involving the pipe bombs, do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do.

MR STEWART: And in your oral testimony before us earlier today you mentioned two people being with you. You mentioned Lucky Mbanjuwa and some one you described as your girlfriend, Tabele Txulu. Do you remember that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do.

MR STEWART: Now you have said in your affidavit that Zweli Dlamini was also with you on that occasion. Mr Dlamini will come and say he knows about this case but he was not involved. What do you say to that?

MR HLONGWANE: I will say that maybe the mistake was mine.

MR STEWART: So you agree that Zweli was not there?

MR HLONGWANE: I was with Tabele Txulu and Lucky Mbanjuwa. Zweli's name was mentioned by mistake.

MR STEWART: Mr Hlongwane I want to take you back now to your days in Mpumalanga when you were part of the IFP Youth League. Do you remember telling us about that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I remember.

MR STEWART: And you mention at one place in your affidavit that you were introduced to Mdlanduna or Mr Luthuli at a meeting. Do you remember that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: And I am referring now for the assistance of the members of the Committee to paragraph 19 on page 139. And you say there Mr Hlongwane you one day had a meeting at a school. You remember a well built man stood up and introduced himself as Mdlanduna and you say there you had not seen him before. And that Mdlanduna complained that you being the youth had not been disciplined. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR STEWART: And he warned you about carelessness and if you continued in that fashion the UDF would finish you off. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR STEWART: And is it right that Mdlanduna was concerned about the reckless and careless way in which the youth there were conducting their fight against the UDF, ANC?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR STEWART: And he encouraged you to become more organised and disciplined and to conduct your attacks with a political objective. Is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR STEWART: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Stewart. Mr Ngubane do you have any questions?

MR NGUBANE: Yes Mr Chairman thank you very much. Mr Hlongwane I know that these incidents were numerous and that they ocurred some time ago but I have instructions to ask you about certain incidents and if you can remember then please tell us. Do you recall the 2nd of August when there was a mass action by the ANC at eSikaweni to remove the KwaZulu flag at the police station?

COMMITTEE MEMBER: Mr Ngubane can you assist me, 2nd August of which year?

MR NGUBANE: 2nd of August 1992, yes thank you.

MR HLONGWANE: I do not remember.

MR NGUBANE: Do you recall or did you participate at any stage in the attack of a house wherein a certain Mrs Mbanjuwa who resided at D950 when that house was attacked do you recall that incident?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I remember.

MR NGUBANE: Who gave you the orders to attack there?

MR HLONGWANE: Mrs Mbuyazi.

MR NGUBANE: And is it correct that Mrs Mbanjuwa's neighbours' house was also bombed on that particular day?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is true.

MR NGUBANE: Who were with you when these attacks were conducted?

MR HLONGWANE: It was myself and Izinkabi.

MR NGUBANE: Now is it correct.

CHAIRMAN: Just for the record is Izinkabi that is the people who came from Johannesburg?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: And is it correct that the english name for the word Izinkabi is oxen which are used?

MR HLONGWANE: That is true.

MR NGUBANE: Which are used to plough the fields?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is true.

MR NGUBANE: Was there any member of your hit squad members of eSikaweni present when that attack was undertaken?

MR HLONGWANE: I do not know whether Lucky Mbanjo was there or not.

MR NGUBANE: Now these izinkabi were they brought by Mr Xhosa to eSikaweni?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

CHAIRMAN: Sorry by that you mean Mr Ngubane do you mean physically brought?

MR NGUBANE: Not necessarily Mr Chairman. In which ever way they were brought. Now there is a gentleman by the, oh well did you participate in the attack at Ngama's shebeen at any stage?

MR HLONGWANE: Do you mean Paul's shebeen? Yes I was involved.

MR NGUBANE: Yes. Who was with you when that attack took place?

MR HLONGWANE: It was myself and Romeo.

MR NGUBANE: There is a gentleman by the name of Mataba who was injured on his mouth there and he instruct me that he was a public speaker and a marketing person and he is seriously handicapped now. He cannot undertake that. Do you have a special word for him?

MR HLONGWANE: Was he shot on the same day that Ntanda was also attacked?

MR NGUBANE: Well when Ngama's shebeen was attacked.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson I do not like intervening and disturbing Mr Ngubane. With respect I think that the witness's answers to his question about Ngama's shebeen specifically relates to the time when the 4 youths were killed and I think we need to establish whether or not this attack that Mr Ngubane is referring to is another attack or whether it is at the same time so that the witness can get an idea of how to answer the questions.

CHAIRMAN: Yes Mr Ngubane are you referring to the same time, the same attack that Mr Mbambo referred to in his evidence when those 4 people were killed?

MR NGUBANE: Mr Chairman I believe it was a separate incident. But be that as it may all that I want is whether he wants to apologize to that person or not.

CHAIRMAN: Yes perhaps you can ask Mr Hlongwane how many times did you attack at Ngema's shebeen?

MR HLONGWANE: It was once when Romeo and myself attacked when we attacked these 4 youths.

CHAIRMAN: Was that the only attack? You did not have any other attacks?

MR HLONGWANE: It is the only one that I was ever involved in.

MR NGUBANE: To whoever was injured there do you have an apology for whoever was injured there.

CHAIRMAN: Sorry I have been told that some of the people at the back of the hall cannot hear you. Could you just speak a little bit louder please Mr Hlongwane?

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Ngubane the testimony before us is that nobody survived that attack. That Ndunda and the 3 other youths were killed. So I am a little confused by the question that you are putting to Mr Hlongwane because I do not have any evidence that anyone survived that attack.

MR NGUBANE: I will not pursue that question. Now do you know Kula School at eSikaweni, Kula a school called Kula?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do know the school.

MR NGUBANE: After your attack of Seranani Hall did you attack the houses that were adjacent to Kula School? You remember you told us about the incident at Hlanganani when you killed people who were in the car and set them on fire? After that incident did you proceed to attack houses that were next to Kula School?

MR HLONGWANE: No.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you. Now Mr Hlongwane it appears to me that you started these evil acts when you were very young, at 16 years of age?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And you have only passed standard 6 that is right?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: And from then onwards were you involved in any other training other than this semi-military training and killing people?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: Well I am not sure whether you understood my question. Were you given any other decent training other than this semi-military training and this training of killing people after you age of 16?

CHAIRMAN: What Ngubane wants to know from you. Besides being trained at Koeberg and getting this police training and training that you have referred to already relating to the use of firearms, breaking in, etc, have you had any other training? Have you had any training for a civilian job, let us put it that way?

MR HLONGWANE: No.

MR NGUBANE: You mentioned that at some stage you had targetted Beki Nthuli's house?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR NGUBANE: But instead you attacked house number 123, is that right?

MR HLONGWANE: That is correct.

MR NGUBANE: What caused you to attack house number 123?

MR HLONGWANE: I am not originally from eSikaweni, I thought that I knew Mr Nthuli's house but that was apparently not the case. So when I identified the house, Mr Nthuli's house to the Izinkabi I pointed at 123 and not 125. So that is how the house number 123 was attacked. But we had intended to attack Mr Nthuli's home.

MR NGUBANE: Okay did you make that mistake once or did you make it twice or more than twice of attacking house number 123?

MR HLONGWANE: I think maybe it happened twice or on three occasions that I made a mistake of this nature.

MR NGUBANE: So the instructions that I have that in fact this house was attacked twice you would not be able to dispute that?

MR HLONGWANE: I would not dispute it.

MR NGUBANE: Now at paragraph 105 of your affidavit you say that there was a stage when you were called the Self Protection Unit and on the final day of your training you were addressed by Mr C J Mutetuwa who stressed again that you should stop all the people from going to vote and to eliminate the ANC. Was this immediately prior to the elections in 1994?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR NGUBANE: Can you elaborate a bit here, how were you going to stop these people from voting?

MR HLONGWANE: The buses and voting stations would be attacked. Nobody would leave the township to go to vote. That is one way I can explain it.

MR NGUBANE: Yes if you say the buses were going to be stopped where were those buses going to come from? Were there any specific areas that were targetted?

MR HLONGWANE: An area of KwaZulu Natal had supplied people who were going to be responsible for seeing to it that the voting process would not take place. They will stop the people from voting.

MR NGUBANE: I see Mr Mtetwa told you that you should stop the people from going to vote. Was he the only one who told you that or had you received prior instructions to do that?

MR HLONGWANE: He is not the only one because Jerry had also mentioned this and Jerry was feared in this province.

CHAIRMAN: Are you talking about Jerry Medunda?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes Jerry Medunda.

MR NGUBANE: Was there a specific programme that was designed specifically for you to stop the people from going to the elections?

MR HLONGWANE: I will say that there was because we had already been told on how we were going to conduct our operation, how we would attack the people. That is the programme that I knew of.

MR NGUBANE: You personally were you assigned to attack a specific voting area and if so which area were you assigned to?

MR HLONGWANE: I think that I would actually go to a place or attack a place where I would be at the time of voting.

MR NGUBANE: And what eventually happened to that plan of yours of attacking areas where people were going to vote?

MR HLONGWANE: All weapons were confiscated from Umpholozi and I also got arrested so the attack was never carried out.

MR NGUBANE: Who took the firearms?

MR HLONGWANE: They were confiscated by the then Captain Scotts together with Mr Howard Vany. Scotts was with Major Aswagen.

MR NGUBANE: Did you receive any specific instruction from the IFP leadership not to attack any more or it was just this arrest of yours that stopped the attack?

MR HLONGWANE: It was because of my arrest. I did not receive any further instructions.

MR NGUBANE: Now at paragraph 94 you mentioned that when you were outside KwaZulu Natal at Ermelo you used to receive cash payment of R800 a month to buy groceries and to look after youself, is it correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes it is as written here.

MR NGUBANE: And when you came back to KwaZulu Natal how did you manage to sustain yourself, how did you, did you get any money at the end of the month?

MR HLONGWANE: I was supposed to receive money regularly from MZ Khumalo but if I was away MZ Khumalo would telephone the mayor or the official there so that I could receive my salary, R800. I would be paid at the end of each month.

CHAIRMAN: Please be quiet.

MR NGUBANE: Now when you were at eSikaweni did you continue to receive this R800 a month or you received more than that at any stage?

MR HLONGWANE: No it was never increased but we would receive maybe smaller amounts from the eSikaweni leadership. For instance when we had hit big fish they would give us money perhaps or maybe sometimes we would have braais. But I would not count that as salaries. They would just be giving us that money because they were pleased.

MR NGUBANE: Who was actually giving you money at eSikaweni monthly, this monthly salary if I may call it?

MR HLONGWANE: Mr Pipi Biyela.

MR NGUBANE: Was this money in hard cash or it was cheques or what was the position?

MR HLONGWANE: He gave me cash cheques. I had never encountered a problem by using these cash cheques. He even carries these cheques to this day. Even if you wanted as little as R5 he would sign it for you.

MR NGUBANE: Now there is a stage when you were taken by MZ Khumalo into hiding, do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: I remember it very well.

MR NGUBANE: And when you were in hiding did you continue to receive any money?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I received money from MZ Khumalo. Although we were no longer on good terms at the time. I ended up stealing fowls from peoples' homes. I would sometimes go for 2 to 3 months without money. But as a person working under such situations I could not go into the public. Therefore I would hunt at night, hunting for fowls.

MR NGUBANE: For how long did this happen when you stole peoples' fowls and braaied them? Approximately?

MR HLONGWANE: It happened quite frequently because Mr Khumalo used to claim that the IFP's money was his children's. He will tell me that he would give me money but I should always remember that it belongs to his children and that his wife did not like him giving me the money. And he would go on for quite a long time without giving me money.

CHAIRMAN: Sorry please be quiet so we can continue.

MR NGUBANE: Now let's turn now to the murder of Gidinga at Mandeni, do you recall that incident?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I remember it very well.

MR NGUBANE: Now there was some concern that the mother of Gidinga did not give you direct instructions to kill Gidinga. Do you recall when you were asked about that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do remember being asked about that.

MR NGUBANE: Now what I would like to know is that after Gidinga had been killed did you have the opportunity of meeting his mother?

MR HLONGWANE: I only saw her at the funeral in the morning when we were going to dig the grave at Island.

MR NGUBANE: Was there a stage after Gidinga had been murdered when in the presence of his mother his dad was discussed? In other words in the presence of his mother and yourself where his dad was discussed?

MR HLONGWANE: I do not remember.

MR NGUBANE: Did you at any stage gain the impression that he condoned this murder of Gidinga?

MR HLONGWANE: I did not think like that, I knew that.

MR NGUBANE: I see. Okay let's move on to this other hit man called Jerry Mdanda, where is he now? Do you know?

MR HLONGWANE: If I were to explain here I can explain where he is.

MR NGUBANE: Yes please do so?

MR HLONGWANE: I just touched upon his background. He is from the MK initially, actually defected from the MK to come and join us and on joining Inkata he did not go to the college. So then sent straight to the BSI.

MR NGUBANE: Sorry Mr Hlongwane to interrupt can you take it step by step so the interpreter can interpret? You said he defected from MK and he joined the police force, just proceed from there?

MR HLONGWANE: After joining the police at KwaZulu there was this police hit squad that was handled by Mr Kanile and Captain Shlengwa. And he was part of this group. There is also this other person called MG, the one Major Zama confused with one of the applicants. And he was together with people like Cyril Ngema and others. Jerry then worked at the police station and there came a time that he left the hit squad to come and, he left actually the police force to come and join the squad on a full time basis. And after that, that is after our arrest there was this that Jerry wanted to do what Thanduxolo our Commander did. Inkata was working hand in hand with the Boers and they knew that Jerry now wanted to write statements, take statements and they silenced him. Jerry Ndunda that is after our arrest yes the ITU together and there was now a need or it transpired that this was now known at Ulundi and when it transpired that there was conflict at Ntuba, he was seconded to go and sort that out at Ntuba - that is Jerry. And they heard that he was coming to testify on our behalf and he was shot at Ntuba. His corpse was taken elsewhere far away and people wondered why he was found at such a sugar cane field wearing a pyjama and big jacket. And people wondered how it happened. That is actually how he died. He actually came to give testimony on our behalf.

MR NGUBANE: Now if I understand your evidence correctly are you saying that Jerry Mdunda wanted to disclose the activities of Inkata and Inkata knew of that and they decided to eliminate him?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is exactly what I am saying.

MR NGUBANE: Now one last aspect. You mentioned something about that incident of Nthlengetwa where one of your members was hit with a brick. Do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do remember that.

MR NGUBANE: It looks like that gentleman was severely injured do you know what happened after he had been hit with a brick?

MR HLONGWANE: Matawa took him to hospital and on arrival at the hospital it transpired that he was losing his head. He was hit right here on the forehead. So he must have lost his mind. That meaning that he really completely lost his head.

CHAIRMAN: Please settle down.

MR HLONGWANE: I am saying this because when we were with him at the hospital he would refer to us as comrades and we concluded that he should not be given a gun. And when he died for example he had already lost a hand. But guns that were distributed around, guns that were brought by Humphrey Ndlovo. We also had these hand made guns. He accidently shot himself with one of these home made guns. Shot himself in the hand and he shot himself with an SSG or something and that is how he actually lost his hand.

MR NGUBANE: I see when you pointed at your head what you said in Zulu literally meant that his senses moved from his forehead to his back head, is that correct?

CHAIRMAN: Did he die as a result of that head injury ultimately? Did the head injury result in his death or did he die some other way?

MR HLONGWANE: No that is not the reason why he died. He survived that incident and he went back to his home Stanger where he came from. And when he arrived there as he was alighting from the taxi those whom we were fighting saw him and they finished him off. That is how he died.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman I have no further questions.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Ngubane. Mr Hewit do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR HEWIT: Mr Chairman we elect not to put any questions to this witness and once again place on record that the persons whom we represent and who have been implicated by this witness deny their complicity in any of the offenses he has testified to. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRMAN: Thank you Mr Hewit. Mr Mpshe do you have any questions to put to this witness?

MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Hlongwane I am going to take you back to the incident that took place at the hall where there was that motor vehicle that shone its lights on the building. Do you remember that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I do.

MR MPSHE: Now you whilst you were testifying you mentioned the fact that Mrs Mbuyazi and others lay on the floor and due to further questions being put to you said it was, they were taking cover. Do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes I remember that well.

MR MPSHE: As I went through your affidavit no mention is made of this incident of Mbuyazi and others taking cover lying on the floor.

MR HLONGWANE: It is exactly as you stated. What I would like to say here is things like for example the cutting of the hand of a person are not part of the affidavit. I am saying this now not necesssarily as an addition but I am saying things as they happened. These things are not included here because the ITU people are the ones who were taking statements from us. They did this hurriedly and after that they took us back to the prison because they were busy attending to many other things and therefore many things here were written down hurriedly.

CHAIRMAN: I think also Mr Mpshe it perhaps seemed to be a not too important detail. It is just a detail of an incident. In the light of the whole incident is not very important the fact that they lay on the floor.

MR MPSHE: I stand corrected Mr Chairman. Now still on this incident you testified that this motor vehicle it did not move down the road. It left the road and parked in front of the road and people thought that they were attacked. Do you remember this incident?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is what I said.

MR MPSHE: Now did you see this car at the time when it was approaching the hall?

MR HLONGWANE: No I did not see it approach. It saw it beaming its light just like the light behind you. It was beaming its light at the hall.

MR MPSHE: Ja but how can you now testify that it did not move down the normal road? It went that way and turned round and went to the hall?

MR HLONGWANE: I said I was inside the house or the hall and one Zondi from Johannesburg came. He is the one who explained that the car drove past the hall and made a U-turn and came back and beamed its lights at the hall. It beamed its light at the hall and people thought now we are being attacked. And they came to inform me while I was in the house. At the time people like Mrs Mbuyazi had already taken cover in the hall.

MR MPSHE: The movement of the car then is not what you saw. You were told in short?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes that is correct.

MR MPSHE: In your own mind what made these people think that they were under attack? The people inside the hall?

MR HLONGWANE: I think because of the situation at eSikaweni you too would turn off your lights and television if somebody walked past your house. The situation was so tense at the time and that is what they thought. And they concluded that they were being attacked because of the manner in which the lights were beaming at the hall. The atmosphere was bad. One slight mistake, for example a person would draw his gun on suspecting that we were being attacked. People ended up not watching television in their houses. K2 is the only place where they used to watch television because people that used to kill were in K2. They watched television sitting down on the floor. For example we went to some place and we found these people sitting down on the floor and we therefore could not take our aim at shooting them. Places like H1, H2 those are the places. There are several things that I may not have included in the affidavit but I can explain to you the situation as it transpired at the time. I would challenge any member from eSikaweni to stand up and object to what I am saying. The situation at eSikaweni was extremely terrible at the time but only J2, that is where people would play their radios, watch televisions and that is only...

MR HLONGWANE: ...[inaudible] that was the information I got.

MR MPSHE: But you know Mr Hlongwane, you are so emphatic about knowing the mother and even told this Committee where she worked and that you even met her at the funeral and she's the person that told you to dig up the grave first and now you're saying you were told ...[intervention]

MR MPSHE: That is exactly what I'm saying. The person who identified to me as Gendingani's mother is Koti ...[indistinct] who worked at Renkem.

CHAIRPERSON: But most people who know other people's mothers are just told that they're the mother, you don't actually know it.

ADV MOTATA: It's hearsay.

CHAIRPERSON: It's hearsay, it's like you knowing your birthday.

MR HLONGWANE: ...[no English translation]

MR MPSHE: You testified Mr Hlongwane, very emphatically that you know Koti and you know that Koti is Gendingani's mother, even met her at the funeral and she is the one who told you to dig up the grave faster, you were very emphatic about it.

MR HLONGWANE: I still maintain that even when we had our food, she indeed gave us food, that is what I'm saying. I'm not changing from my previous statement.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, I'm going to make a request to this Committee to request one of the women in attendance to stand up so as to round up this issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly Mr Mpshe.

MR MPSHE: Do you know this woman?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I don't know her.

MR MPSHE: If - let her stand up please, if I put it to you that this is Gendingani's mother what would you say? In fact she is Gendingani's mother.

MR HLONGWANE: This is not the woman that I know, I know Koti whom I've been told about. I do not know this person.

MR MPSHE: Good. Thank you, she may sit down.

Do you remember what you said about this woman, particularly the fact that she is - no, no, when you said: "the mother" to Gendingani, is the one who said her son must be killed, do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember.

MR MPSHE: And are you aware now that in the minds of the people in here who know her as being Gendinga's mother, that thing is still in their minds, do you agree with me?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I do but I wonder if you can allow me to explain that when I arrived Mandeni, Shakes and Gadebe told me that Gendinga was a problem and his mother had already agreed that he should be killed. The Koti that I am talking about is a staunch IFP member at Mandeni. If she was a tenant there, let it be clear to this Committee that the information that I received ...[intervention]

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee my intention is not and was never to stay any motions.

CHAIRPERSON: We understand that Mr Mpshe and we totally except what you say.

MR HLONGWANE: I was trying to explain that when arrived at a certain area I would be told about a particular person. I am not from Mandeni not from eSikhawini but come from Hammersdale. I am making an example. I apologise in advance if I'm wasting the Committee's time.

If for instance I was told that Zweli belonged to a member, to a certain organisation and maybe his brother is here, if I had been told by the leadership I would have to accept that information as it was. That is why I accepted the information about Koti and that is why I say I know Koti and I it is she who said the person should be killed.

The person that stood in front of us here I do not know but I know Koti who works at Renkem. Therefore it means that because Koti was an IFP member - I think that because Koti was a tenant there, she used that opportunity to get him killed and devise a strategy of claiming that Gendinga was her child. I am not denying anything but what I'm saying is that this is not the person who was shown to me or identified to me as Gendinga's mother.

CHAIRPERSON: Please, please be quiet.

MR MPSHE: I understand your explanation very well and your explanation is accepted by myself. I understand you very well but what I want - what I'm driving at now is the fact that this woman who was standing here who was actually the mother, her name needs to cleared since you realise that it was a mistake, Koti was not the mother. Are you still with me?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, and I'm committed to doing that. I understand you perfectly. I am committed to apologising to her about everything. As I've explained before, the IFP in collaboration with the National Party killed a lot of people in Kwa Zulu Natal for engaging in those activities and they used as soldiers in these activities.

What I can say to Gendinga's mother is that I apologise for claiming that it was indeed her who wanted her son to be killed. I apologise wholeheartedly, unreservably but I will also add that the situation was thus because of Koti and the Mandeni leadership.

MR MPSHE: If you move to page 189 ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please settle down.

MR MPSHE: That is the killing of an Induna on instruction of Chief Mataba.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR MPSHE: I know you have testified that some of the names you cannot recall. This Chief's name you still cannot recall, this particular chief? You can't recall him?

CHAIRPERSON: You mean the Induna?

MR HLONGWANE: I think there's a mistake somewhere here. My 189 is on CG's attack, I don't know who you're talking about.

MR MPSHE: No, no, the one where Chief Mataba had said this Induna must be assassinated because he was against, he demanded the burning of traditional weapons, do you remember the Induna's name? It starts from page 187, paragraph 151.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember what happened there.

MR MPSHE: Ja, that was testified to, the name of the Induna who was killed, do you remember the name?

MR HLONGWANE: I do not remember the name.

MR MPSHE: Thank you. The same again - if the Chair could just bear with me. Now, let's move to page 191, paragraph 155, the incident where your colleague was hit with a brick on the forehead.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I have found the page.

MR MPSHE: I've been informed - actually I spoke to the very victim here and he said his actual names are not as stated here, his names are Izack Mkotliseni Nhlengethwe, would you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember. I think I wrote rather his surname incorrectly.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I have caused the person to stand.

Is that the person? Is that the victim?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is him.

MR MPSHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, so then - just please be quiet. So whenever the name Nshleko appears it should be Nhlengethwe?

MR HLONGWANE: Nhlengethwe.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. N-H-L-E-N-G-E-T-H-W-E?

MR MPSHE: W-A.

CHAIRPERSON: W-A.

MR MPSHE: That is correct.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes.

MR MPSHE: Now let's move to the last incident, the killing of the so-called ANC painters.

Members of the Committee, I'm sorry, page 200, paragraph 181.

MR HLONGWANE: 181?

MR MPSHE: Ja, paragraph 181. After these boys, the deceased had arrived on the scene, what did they do before you could shoot?

MR HLONGWANE: They were actually erasing what we had written. They had done this before and we had to re-write that message.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, I'm obliged to intervene at this stage, I've just been approached to, and it's indicated that there is one of the persons implicated, a Major Zama who is standing in view of all of the applicants just outside and who is making the security around here feel concerned about them being here and they would prefer to take a short adjournment at this stage to resolve that problem.

CHAIRPERSON: We had said earlier we would take a short adjournment at 3 o'clock seeing that we began at half past one. We can take a short adjournment but I might indicate that implicated persons do have a right to attend the hearing and I'd be loathe to excluded an implicated person from attending a hearing because other people may just be afraid of him being here.

MR WILLS: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MR HLONGWANE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills?

MR WILLS: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I just want to place on record that the persons whom I represent have absolutely no objection and have never had any objection for Major Zama or anyone else for that matter, to come in participate in these proceedings. The objection that was raised by - the objection raised by the security was standing in the hallway outside of the building and facing the persons and making intimidatory gestures, that was the problem, thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills. Mr Mpshe?

MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. For record purposes as to what caused the adjournment. There is a gentleman, Major Zama who is currently stationed at Sundumbili.

This Major Zama was implicated viva voce by Romeo Mbambo. He was here with his Advocate, Advocate Mkhize inasfar as Major Zama's rights are concerned. I had a minute talk with Advocate Mkhize to whom I explained the procedure, to whom I explained what they can do and to whom I further explained their rights as implicated persons.

Advocate Mkhize agreed that there is nothing that can be done now but they would like to be present and refute or dispute allegations against Major Zama, made by Romeo Mbambo. And he suggested to me that they would like to do that, not at this hearing but at the next or subsequent hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mpshe, will a formal notice in terms of Section 30 be issued and then perhaps when it becomes available, the relevant transcript of the proceedings be forwarded to Major Zama and/or his Advocate, Mr Mkhize?

MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, Members of the Committee, that is exactly what I have explained to him and that is our standing agreement.

CHAIRPERSON: And was it also made known to them that if they desired, they were welcome to attend from now?

MR MPSHE: That I did mention specifically but the advocate said that it would not be wise for them to be in attendance, they prefer to leave.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Is there anybody else who wishes to say anything? I think we can continue. Mr Mpshe, you were asking Mr Hlongwane questions when we adjourned.

MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Incidentally, the question I was asking was the last question Mr Hlongwane had responded to that. No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I did not hear the answer because at the stage the interruption was made by the security so possibly Mr Mpshe can just indicate to me what that answer was, thank you.

MR MPSHE: Mr Chairperson, if the Chair allows. My question to Mr Hlongwane was, I asked him as to what did these boys do after arriving before the shooting and he said they were busy rubbing off what they had written on the boards or on the street, that was the answer, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Wills, do you have any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Just one point, thank you Mr Chairperson.

Mr Hlongwane, you've given evidence that Shalganani Hall is in fact in an ANC section, is that correct, J1 Section?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: Is it J1 Section or is it H1?

MR HLONGWANE: J1.

MR WILLS: And is it also not true that Shlanganani Hall is the Municipal Offices for Esikhawini?

MR HLONGWANE: ...[no English translation]

MR WILLS: Shlanganani Hall constitutes the Municipal Offices for eSikhawini? All the Councillors offices are at Shlanganani Hall.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR WILLS: And also at that stage, is it no so that all the Councillors were in fact IFP supporting Councillors?

MR HLONGWANE: That's correct.

MR WILLS: Thank you, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills. Mr Moloi, do you have any questions?

MR MOLOI: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Hlongwane, you stated that at a stage M Z placed you in hiding at the camp for a period of time, how long was that?

MR HLONGWANE: I would like the Committee member to explain the camp that he's talking about.

MR MOLOI: I refer here to your paragraph section of your affidavit referring to hiding somewhere, and you stated you were taken there by M Z Khumalo and left there for some time and that Lalelane, his son, was also providing you with food and so on.

MR HLONGWANE: I understand what you're talking about now.

MR MOLOI: Yes, how long did you stay there?

MR HLONGWANE: Although I cannot be precise because I stayed for quite a while at that camp. I cannot be sure how long it was but it was quite long.

MR MOLOI: Do we talk here about the question of weeks, months or how long?

MR HLONGWANE: It's not weeks, I think it could have been a year or even two.

MR MOLOI: And then at a stage you were a fugitive from Justice, avoiding arrest by the Empangeni Police?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I was eventually arrested by the Special Branch from Durban.

MR MOLOI: And subsequent to your being taken away and hidden at that camp, you were again deployed and committed some murders, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, it is true but I was in a tent, not a camp.

MR MOLOI: Yes. But thereafter you continued to kill and carried out your instructions?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOLOI: And you also went then to Mandeni and stayed there and continued with this course of killing?

MR HLONGWANE: I did not stay at Mandeni but I would be fetched from the tent if I was required for certain activities and then I would return to my tent thereafter.

MR MOLOI: So you never stayed in Mandeni itself, is that I understand you?

MR HLONGWANE: I did not stay at Mandeni but I did have friends that I would visit. I never really had a place of my own at Mandeni.

MR MOLOI: Now these incidents that followed upon your being taken to that camp up to the stage of your arrest were committed whilst you were staying in that tent and just moving out and coming back to that tent?

MR HLONGWANE: I would leave the tent, commit those activities and then return to the tent unless maybe if I'd gone out to see my girlfriends, but my area or rather my place where I stayed was the tent.

MR MOLOI: And the Empangeni Police never came to know about your movements?

MR HLONGWANE: The police did not know about my movements but those who were in contact with M Z Khumalo knew about me whereabouts. M Z would contact the Special Branch and tell them about my whereabouts but I would not be arrested. So those police knew where I was.

To just explain a bit about Mandeni, there is Sundumbili belonging to the IFP or the ZP and the SAP exists at Noone(?). M Z had contacts within this area and then I would be told of what was happening. Now police ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please settle down.

INTERPRETER: The applicant was saying that his movements were known by every policeman, the Noone and Sundumbili area, even Mr Zama himself. I would like to explain this matter further.

We worked for these people and if the Commission can allow me I will explain something about a certain boy ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please settle down. Please, please, be quiet.

If the Interpreter could just tell us what was said, we couldn't hear over the din.

INTERPRETER: Certainly. The applicant was expressing the view that the people who were in charge knew of their activities and in fact they had sent them on these activities and their distress today that those very same people have deserted them and come here and they have the audacity as that shown by Mr Zama, to come here and intimidate them in this fashion.

He also expressed the view that they are not intimidated by people like Mr Zama, they are prepared to divulge all their activities that they committed at that time so that the Commission and the public will know that these people indeed were responsible for those activities.

...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. Please, please settle down, we must be able to continue.

MR MOLOI: I am finished.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Moloi. Mr Motata?

ADV MOTATA: Just one Mr Chairman flowing from the questions asked by our colleague Moloi.

You said that whilst you were placed in this tent you were fetched from time to time to continue with these activities or operations to put them in your ...[indistinct]

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is what I explained.

ADV MOTATA: I want just to know from you, who fetched you, do you know the people who came when you were required to undertake an operation that you should go there and who brought you back after completion of the operation?

MR HLONGWANE: Sir, it was Mandeni officials, people like Bongani Gadebe, Shakes Nhlongo and Chief Mataba himself. Those are the leaders who assisted me and they would transport me if I was required to carry out activities.

ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Hlongwane.

Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Motata. Mrs Khampepe, do you have any questions?

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have two questions for Mr Hlongwane.

Mr Hlongwane, you have been a very loyal and committed soldier for your organisation, as you have stated in your evidence and because of your loyalty you were given a plethora of orders to execute, which you executed quite flawlessly as you have stated. Did you believe that when persons gave you orders to execute, those authority to give those orders? That is my first question.

MR HLONGWANE: I would like to explain to the Committee that I did not believe but because there was collaboration between the IFP and the National Party we committed these crimes without worrying, not because we felt that these were acceptable activities.

M Z Khumalo worked closely with the SAP so that when we committed crimes we would do this without worrying.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think Mr Hlongwane, the question asked by Mrs Khampepe is that you received orders from a number of people, did you believe that those people who issued those orders to you had the authority and the power to give you those orders?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, they did have authority.

MS KHAMPEPE: You received a series of instructions from one, Bongani Gadebe for instance.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's true.

MS KHAMPEPE: How old was Mr Gadebe?

MR HLONGWANE: He is quite an old person, he's quite old.

MS KHAMPEPE: Was he attending school at Tugela High School at the time he gave you orders to execute?

MR HLONGWANE: No, he was not a student there but I think his children or other people's children reported to him. He worked as a truck driver.

MS KHAMPEPE: Now when he gave you instructions to eliminate people - I think you were given instructions to eliminate a student at Tugela High School, you were also given instructions by Mr Gadebe to eliminate the Majenga family.

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that's correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Did you believe that Mr Gadebe had the necessary authority to give you such instructions?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I strongly believed this because even Dalaxolo will say that Gadebe was a trustworthy man. Dalaxolo gave me the assurance that Gadebe was a trustworthy man. Before we had arrived at the area, Gadebe was responsible for the killing of the people.

MS KHAMPEPE: So were you advised by Mr Luthule to accept instructions from Mr Gadebe?

MR HLONGWANE: The person who was closest to me was M Z Khumalo because I was no longer close to Madlanduna. The person that I worked directly with was M Z Khumalo. At that time I was very close to M Z and I would tell him of my activities and he would recommend me highly and congratulate me.

MS KHAMPEPE: Did you advise Mr Khumalo of the operations that you conducted on instructions you received from Mr Bongani Gadebe?

MR HLONGWANE: I did not tell him directly but I did inform him of the activities that I carried out. Mr Gadebe, being a local leader was the one who gave instruction on who had to be killed so if M Z Khumalo arrived I would tell him of my activities. There was nothing that he didn't know about what I was doing. I used to get him in his house ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Please, please, please, settle down.

MR WILLS: Sorry, Mr Hlongwane, can you wait for the interpreter so that we can hear what your answer is?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry.

MR HLONGWANE: I am trying to explain briefly that M Z is not just a person of authority but he was very close to me and he knew all my movements, that is what I'm trying to explain.

MS KHAMPEPE: But were the operations which you conducted in Mandeni known to M Z Khumalo?

MR HLONGWANE: As a soldier there was nothing that he did not know because I reported to him and he knew about the death of ANC people in Mandeni and he was very pleased about my presence at Mandeni.

What I'd like you to know about M Z is that he is very intelligent. He can ask you a question just wanting to tease out information from you but my response to this question is that he knew about everything that went on.

MS KHAMPEPE: Now in your testimony you stated that you were paid over and above the salary that you received whilst you were a policeman for killing a big fish, you would be paid something for killing a big fish.

MR HLONGWANE: I don't think the Committee Member understood me very well. I did not say I was paid but if they were pleased or happy they would not say they were paying me for the death of those people, they were just giving me this money because of their excitement but not because I was being paid for murders. I've never been paid for killing a person.

MS KHAMPEPE: So was this gratitude never expressed in monetary terms?

MR HLONGWANE: No, they did not pay me, they were just giving me money. If I tell you to go pick up Romeo for example and thereafter I will pay you, that is granting payment but that's not how it happened.

MS KHAMPEPE: I understand what you are trying to say. All that I want to elicit is whether the gratitude which they expressed for killing of big fish was never made in monetary terms, you were not given like R50 to say: "Well, you've killed a big fish, we are very grateful Mr Hlongwane, for having done so other than the dinners that you enjoyed for killing a ...[intervention]

MR HLONGWANE: I tried to explain that if you killed someone you would be given anything, you could be taken to hotels. They thank you in various ways, not just in monetary terms.

MS KHAMPEPE: Now, who would take you to the hotel?

MR HLONGWANE: Bebe Biela and Mrs Mbuaze, those are the leaders from eSikhawini.

MS KHAMPEPE: And from the hierarchy, were you ever given any gifts, like being taken to the hotel by any of your hierarchy?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I remember - can I continue explaining? I remember when I went to Umfolozi, I was around a table with Prince Gideon Zulu discussing the killing of people. We were drinking tea in the morning and his bodyguard and Mutwa were also present. We were drinking tea, the two of us and he was saying: "You see I didn't know that M Z was really talking about a good soldier like yourself".

We used to discuss these things. People like M Z Khumalo and Prince Gideon Zulu would be so pleased and give me whatever they could.

MS KHAMPEPE: My last question Mr Hlongwane, I want to know whether, when you were given instructions, whether looting was explained as another form of attack which you could launch on perceived ANC persons?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that was exactly the case.

MS KHAMPEPE: And who explained that?

MR HLONGWANE: I don't know whether I can refer you back ...[intervention]

MS KHAMPEPE: Was that explained by the local leadership or the hierarchy?

MR HLONGWANE: Local leadership but at the time I was not even closer to people like Dalaxolo Luthule and others. I was also at the time rubbing shoulders with people like Zakele who were members of the Executive. That is at the time when Zakele ended up fighting leaders at Ulundi because the argument was that Nkethle's Inkatha was doing something else and Mamkhunu's Inkatha was doing something else. That is the last time I had this experience but we never took anything from people during the time of our attacks.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR HLONGWANE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Khampepe.

Mr Hlongwane, you've told us about many operations in which you were involved in, from your affidavit it's apparent that you were involved in many more which we will hear about later and that during the course of your stay with the hit squad you killed many, many people and you had no hesitation in killing people if you ordered to do so or if the situation arose, is that correct?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How did it come about that on the day of the big rally when we heard there was a big fight and many people died, that you didn't kill anyone that day?

MR HLONGWANE: ...[no English translation]

CHAIRPERSON: That big rally where Prince Gideon was and it was to be the IFP rally. You said that: "Fighting went on the whole day and many people were killed. I didn't kill anybody that day"

How did it come about that you who were very efficient at killing people didn't kill anyone that day?

MR HLONGWANE: I can explain this, how it happened. What happened there was that my members were at work, many of them that is. I was now using a different strategy, using people like Teleweni and Amabuto, I was now being commanded, my gun was loaded.

The first house, if I were to tell you, the first house that was burnt down - on leaving the stadium that is the first house, Mr Willy's house and this was done in the presence of the police. I was just walking there and I did nothing until people like Romeo held a meeting, that is when I started taking part.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you kill anybody that day?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I did not even draw my gun. You know I walked around and I kept in cover.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you've also stated that you killed people when you were ordered to do so and you've described a number of killings, killing school children at schools and Ginam Mkhize putting his head out the window and shouting: "Catch the first bus" and you killed the person who happened to be close to you, killing family members like the Mbajua's etc.

Did you at any stage during your career as a hit squad member arrive at the conclusion or believe that the orders or some of the orders that you were receiving were unreasonable and should not be carried out because of their gross unreasonableness and their gross illegality or did you just accept an order without thinking about it at all?

MR HLONGWANE: You would not differentiate between good and bad, you just had to carry out the order and do as it was instructed. That was a command, that is a matter of life and death because if you did not carry out the command people like Mbambo would kill you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but you get to a situation that - you might get to a situation where if you're ordered to kill a whole group of school children, better you die than the group of school children.

MR HLONGWANE: For example, if Dalaxolo gave me an F1 and instructed that I should shoot school children or whatever, I would do exactly as I was instructed. It was not for me to decide who should killed or not but I just had to carry out the order as it was instructed, that's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, do you have questions arising from questions that have been put by the panels?

MR WILLS: I have no questions, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart?

MR STEWART: None Mr Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR STEWART

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. I do not have questions arising from what the members of the panel have asked but during the break something was pointed out which I believe I made a mistake when questioning the witness but the instructions I get them, they flow some of them, I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to rectify?

MR NGUBANE: If I can.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, go ahead.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NGUBANE: Mr Hlongwane, do you remember I asked you about the attack at Ngema's Shebeen, do you recall that?

MR HLONGWANE: Yes, I do remember that.

MR NGUBANE: In fact, what was intended there was the attack at Umbuso Zwane's Shebeen. Do you recall any incident in which you were involved when there was an attack at Umbuso Zwane's Shebeen?

MR HLONGWANE: I don't know Umbuso Zwane.

MR NGUBANE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NGUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: You have no questions arising Mr Ngubane?

MR NGUBANE: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions arising out of questions put by the panel?

MR NGUBANE: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hewit?

MR HEWIT: No questions Mr Chairman, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR HEWIT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman. I want to make it clear that what I'm going to put to

the witness is not based on his testimony but as the Chair and Members of the Committee will recall, certain people were killed at bus stops and shebeens and we've been having people coming to enquire, so I just want to find out from him whether he knows of a particular incident, that is all but it relevant to this hearing. If I'm allowed?

Mr Hlongwane, do you perhaps remember the shooting of two people, a man and a woman who were in a car in J1 Section eSikhawini?

MR HLONGWANE: What car was that?

MR MPSHE: We don't have the description of the car but the registration number was NUF 20254, it was on the 2nd of August 1992 at about 9p.m.

MR HLONGWANE: If I were to explain maybe you would understand. There was a car that was attacked when we were waiting at the bus stop. I don't know whether it was indeed hit. The driver was apparently hit on the head. I don't know whether that is the car you are referring to or whether you're talking about something else.

MR MPSHE: I also may not know but I was just wanting to find out if you may recall. The man who was killed in the car is Elias Mbanza and the woman who was with him is Tembi Dladla of eSikhawini.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, my intention isn't to thwart Mr Mpshe's questioning or to thwart the process of full disclosure in any way but I think that in fairness to the witness there must be a ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: A bit more specific I think, yes. But I suppose it's difficult for you Mr Mpshe, to be more specific.

MR MPSHE: Indeed Mr Chairman, it is very, very, difficult as I've indicated at the beginning. We have here incidents where people were shot at bus stops, at shebeens and I'm just trying to find out whether he knows about these things. But to tell him that this was the colour of the car and this is how the people were killed is difficult.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway, he said that he was at one occasion present when a car was shot at and he thinks somebody was shot in the head.

MR MPSHE: Yes, Mr Chairperson. I follow it with another question. I'm not trying to put him that he is lying or whatever, I'm just trying to establish to the benefit of the victims who are sitting herein. I don't see the basis of my learned friend's objection at all.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, if Mr Mpshe mustn't get me wrong and it's important this, I'm not objecting to the question, I'm just trying to assist the witness in being a position - we all

know, we've seen the affidavits, how many incidents that he's committed and it's very difficult to remember all of them and obviously the more particularity there is in regard to Mr Mpshe's questions the better. But if he's not in a position to give particularity, well then I don't see that we've got an alternative but to proceed in that way. But it is not my intention to thwart his line of questioning or to object to it in any way.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Wills.

MR MPSHE: May I be allowed to proceed and round this up Mr Chairman, thank you.

Would the name Alias Mbanze or Tembi Dladla ring any bell in your mind?

MR HLONGWANE: No, I don't know the names.

MR MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is all.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Hlongwane, you may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart, sorry Mr Wills, that concludes your applicants?

MR WILLS: Yes, it concludes the applicants that I represent in relation to the eSikhawini matters. I might add at this stage Mr Chairperson, in view of certain, the process of the violence that took place we are considering calling an expert witness who can explain and possibly assist the Committee with the nature of the violence that occurred in Kwa Zulu Natal.

I know that we have severe time limitations and we are sensitive to that but once we have a record we will be in a position to assess this more appropriately but obviously this will only occur, should it happen, at the next hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Wills, as we all know this hearing is proceeding on a piecemeal basis in that we've been to Durban, we've dealt with some Claremont incidents, we are here dealing with eSikhawini and other Northern Zululand incidents, we will be down at Mpumalanga and there's also incidents to be dealt with that occurred in the other Mpumalanga, the old Eastern Transvaal, so there will be time to call witnesses at a later stage if you feel it necessary and obviously we won't in any way stand in your way in that regard.

MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, that does conclude what I have to say at this particular stage of the proceedings, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stewart, I see that it's now five to four, it might not be a very opportune time to start because we would hardly have started when we will have to adjourn. We adjourn at 4 o'clock and I think it's important, the Interpreters have had an extremely busy day today, Mr Hlongwane spoke at great pace and I think it would be unfair to continue after 4 o'clock or for their sake at least and also I think we are all very hot as it's a very humid day today. So would this be a convenient time? Could you just perhaps just indicate tomorrow will you be, which applicant will you be calling if any?

MR STEWART: Mr Chairperson, thank you, indeed now would be a convenient time. I intend tomorrow to commence with the evidence of Dawid Zwele Dlamini and as Mr Wills has done, my intention is to cover the eSikhawini and surrounding areas incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Stewart. We will therefore adjourn now until tomorrow in this hall at 09H30 again tomorrow morning when we will start with the evidence of Mr Zwele Dlamini.

INTERPRETER: Mr Chairman, Mr Chairman, just for the record ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I can't hear or see who is speaking.

INTERPRETER: I just wanted to state Mr Chairman for the record, that the Interpreters had a very difficult time interpreting the witness, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS