CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon everybody, I apologise for the late start today but apparently there were difficulties in getting one of the applicants here today, that was the reason for the delay. Before we start I'd just like to introduce the panel to you. On my right is Advocate Johnny Motata, he's an advocate from Johannesburg. On my left is Advocate Francis Bosman, she is from the Cape and I'm Selwyn Miller, a Judge from the Eastern Cape attached to the Transkei Division of the High Court there.
CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS INTERPRETATION EQUIPMENT
CHAIRPERSON: I'll just ask the legal representatives to please place themselves on record?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo and I'm appearing on behalf of the applicants in this matter. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.
ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chair and Members of the Committee. J.M. Mpshe for the Commission, Amnesty in particular, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you and this is the application of Messrs Mabala, Khotle and Mafanya. Mr Mbandazayo?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson, my first applicant will be Mosuiwa Khotle, Mosuiwa Isiah Khotle, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khotle do you wish to take the oath or do you wish to make an affirmation of the truth?
MOSUIWA ISIAH KHOTLE: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson.
Mr Khotle, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Honourable Committee, do you confirm that the affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by it's contents?
MR KHOTLE: Yes I do.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, we'll receive this affidavit then as Exhibit A.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, I will start to read for the benefit of the Committee, the affidavit. The affidavit reads as
"I, the undersigned, Mosuiwa Isiah Khotle, do hereby make an oath and say that I'm the applicant in the above matter, having submitted my application whilst being held at Grootvlei Maximum Prison, Bloemfontein. The facts to which I depose herein are true and correct and within my personable knowledge unless the contents indicates otherwise. I was born on the 4th October 1969 at Rocklands Location, Bloemfontein. I grew up at Dillsvale, Free State up until 1983. I left Dillsvale when I was doing Standard 3. In December 1983 my family moved to Botsebelo near Tbanchu where I left school at Standard 10 in 1990 due to financial problems. I joined PAC in 1988 through Azanyo. I was recruited to PAC by Sediso Ralatabo. I joined APLA in 1991 in Transkei where I underwent military training. I was involved in about three operations and I have applied for amnesty for all of them. As APLA operative, my general instruction from APLA high command was to persecute the armed struggle with all means against the then racist minority regime which was undemocratic and oppressive. The said armed struggle was in essence a guerilla warfare during which we as APLA cadres had to seek and attack the bastions and minions of the then aforesaid regime. The ultimate objective of PAC and APLA was not only to topple the then racist minority regime but to eventually return the land to the majority of the African people. The bastions and minions of the then erstwhile regime were in terms of APLA perspective, the members of the South African Defence Force, the members of the South African Police and reservists in general, the farmers, as they belonged to commando structures over and above the fact that they occupied the farms which we have to drive them away from so as to widen our territorial operational base which was aimed at eventually consolidating the liberated and repossessed land. The white homes which we regard as a ...(indistinct). My general instruction was to seek, identify and attack the enemy who was seen in the context of the above bastions and minions of the regime and also to train other cadres and command them in whatever operation that is being embarked upon. Vanderbijlpark Attack: In consequence of and in pursuit of the above stated objective, during March 1992 I was part of APLA unit which ambushed a motor vehicle near Boipatong whose occupants were settlers which resulted in one of them losing his life and apparently others were injured. The unit comprised of myself, Solly, the commander and Boysi. We were staying in Sharpeville at the time. We were deployed in the area by the director of special operations Sipho Bulalani Kloma who was also deputy director of operations. I was armed with AK47 and I do not remember exactly what type of weapons others were armed with, whether AK47 or R4 or R5 rifles. We had two targets on the day in question. That is either police vehicle ambush or vehicle whose occupants were settlers. The reconnaissance was already made by the commander. On the 22 March 1992 it was decided that we should ambush the police vehicle and the other one be carried out on another day. We left ...(indistinct) around 5 a.m. in the morning. When we arrived at the spot of the ambush we saw South African Defence Force patrolling the area. The commander, Solly, decided that we must abandon the operation and that we must carry on with the one of ambushing the vehicle whose occupants were settlers. We went to the area of Boipatong where we laid ambush on the curve. The commander instructed us to shoot any vehicle whose occupants were settlers. A motor vehicle whose occupants were settlers approached and we shot at it. We later learned that one settler died and others were injured. APLA's mode of thinking in that operation did not distinguish between soft and hard targets nor indeed between military and civilian targets. We were simply fighting against criminals who sustained the apartheid system. Criminals because apartheid was declared by the international community represented by United Nations as a crime against humanity. Anybody who was a driver moving apartheid forward and those that supported it were therefore criminals. The whole system of apartheid was run by people who chose to separate themselves from the rest of the humanity and call themselves white. It is these people therefore who we had to tackle in the fight against the system. There is nothing racist about it, if the driver of the apartheid had been Chinese and not Europeans, we would have targeted them. This was the mood of thinking in the APLA code during the struggle.
Heilbron Police Attack: This operation took place between May and June."
Mr Chairperson, if I may correct it, it happened in July, just correct it in July, Mr Chairperson.
"We were a unit of four, it was myself, Solly the commander, Boysi and Maloma. The target was a police vehicle which we were going to ambush. The reconnaissance was done by Solly and Maloma. We travelled from Sharpeville to Heilbron by taxi. The weapons were in a suitcase and consisted of two M26 grenades, two AK47, one R4 rifle. I was armed with M26 grenade. This operation happened between 21h00 and 22h00. We arrived at the spot where we were to ambush the vehicle. It was next to the library at the Teritona Location. At our arrival the target had already passed the spot. We were about to abandon the operation. A police motor vehicle came and when they saw us they made a u-turn. The commander ordered that we must shoot and we commenced shooting but I never threw the grenades. Maloma was shot whilst we were retreating and I later learnt that he was arrested in hospital. We slept in different places and we met the following day and we took different taxis to Sharpeville. I respectfully submit that my application complies with the requirements of the Act and that I've made full and proper disclosure of my involvement in the above operations and I accordingly humbly request my application for amnesty be granted."
Signed by the applicant. Mr Chairperson, I'll only ask the applicant only one clarity, to give clarification and after that, that be his case.
Mr Khotle, in the application of the other applicants, they mention a person by the name Jan. Do you know any person by the name Jan and if you know him, how do you know him?
MR KHOTLE: In our unit we had a certain person called Jan, his name is Boysi. The commander called him Jan because he wanted him to be the commander then that Jan is Sipho who is Kuma.
CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying there were two Jans?
MR KHOTLE: That is correct, in the unit we had only one Jan. Welaleni Kuma, his other name was Jan. Within our unit Boysi called the commander Jan.
CHAIRPERSON: So is that Solly?
MR KHOTLE: That is Boysi.
CHAIRPERSON: Because you see in the other application, Mr Khotle, the other applicants say that the commander was Jan, am I wrong? I think if you look at page 6, "Comrade Jan gave the order." If you look at page 6, paragraph 11(b) and then you take a look at page 11, again it says "Comrade Jan gave the order"
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairperson, that's the question he was trying to explain that there were two Jans, the one is the commander who gave the order, that is Sipho Bulalani Kuma.
CHAIRPERSON: But then who is Solly?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Then Solly was the commander of the unit.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay. Yes?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairperson, that's all I wanted from the applicant and that's his evidence up to this stage. Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?
ADV MPSHE: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no questions.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE
CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Motata?
ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Khotle, if you have regard to page 16 of your application, that is the one you submitted to the Amnesty Committee and you have regard to paragraph 9(a)i, you speak of robbery, murder and shoot out with police at Heilbron. You see there?
MR KHOTLE: Yes.
ADV MOTATA: And at 9(a)ii, you were asked about dates and you give 18 February 1992, 22nd March 1993 and 1993? You see that? Now the impression I have is that you are applying at least for three incidents and listening to you I have heard of two in your affidavit?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Just for the benefit of the Committee, just before he answers Mr Chairperson, if I may chip in on that aspect? With regard to robbery Mr Chairperson, he has already, that's why he is out, he was granted amnesty on that one, he was done in Bloemfontein so that's why he is applying for the other two.
CHAIRPERSON: So we're just concerned with the murder, that is the Vanderbijlpark incident and the shoot out with the police, that is the Heilbron incident?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairperson, it was dealt with the first one, robbery, at Bloemfontein hearing. Thank you Mr Chairperson.
ADV MOTATA: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo because without that explanation I was at a loss. Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman?
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.
Mr Khotle, if you have a look at paragraph 13 of your affidavit, it says there:
"The commander instructed us to shoot any vehicle whose occupants were settlers."
What was the objective of the shooting? What did you wish to gain by just shooting at a vehicle?
MR KHOTLE: Settlers were people who stole our land therefore we were supposed to shoot them.
ADV BOSMAN: Was the intention to kill them?
MR KHOTLE: The order was that we should kill settlers.
ADV BOSMAN: So if you had to clarify that sentence, it would be "the commander instructed us to shoot at the vehicle and kill the occupants"? Was that the order?
MR KHOTLE: Yes we were going to shoot, that is why there were people who were killed, we were going there to kill.
CHAIRPERSON: I think what Advocate Bosman is trying to say, the order was not to shoot at the vehicle, but to shoot at the people inside the vehicle?
MR KHOTLE: Yes that is correct.
ADV BOSMAN: And how did you define settlers, was that just any white person?
MR KHOTLE: A settler is any other person when he arrived at other people's land, he repossessed the land of those people.
ADV BOSMAN: But in terms of your definition in the South African context, was any white person a settler?
MR KHOTLE: Whites were settlers at that time.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.
ADV MOTATA: Just to follow up Mr Chairperson.
Mr Khotle, now just taking it from where my fellow Committee Member spoke of paragraph 13 of your affidavit. Was it a command that had to emanate from a commander or was this Pan Africanist Congress policy that settlers should be shot at or you had to get a command before you do it from your commander?
MR KHOTLE: Will you please repeat the question sir?
ADV MOTATA: I say - let me rephrase it in this manner - that was it your commander who had to choose the target or the settlers, as I understand you, was that PAC policy that every white person who found himself in this land was a settler?
MR KHOTLE: All whites were settlers at that time when we were engaged in the armed struggle.
ADV MOTATA: Ja now what I want to know, was that general policy of the Pan Africanist Congress?
MR KHOTLE: Which one sir?
ADV MOTATA: That the whites were settlers and they should be eliminated or you had to wait for a commander in your unit to say shoot those settlers in particular in that vehicle or where your reconnaissance took you to?
MR KHOTLE: As a soldier I was instructed to shoot any car which is occupied by settlers and the PAC's definition of settlers are those who oppressed the black masses.
ADV MOTATA: But before you could do so, you had to get the instructions from a commander of your unit?
MR KHOTLE: Yes, as a soldier I should wait for an instruction.
ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khotle on paragraph 13 of your affidavit you said you
"We later learnt that one settler died and others were injured"
The information that I have on the papers is that only one other was injured, not others, so what do you mean by others, what did you learn after the operation?
MR KHOTLE: I learnt from the papers, I knew that only one person died then I learnt that others were injured, I did not verify as to whether how many were injured.
CHAIRPERSON: Well then according to the paper cuttings that we have there was only two people in the car. Do you see more than two people in the car that you shot at? How many people did you see in the car that you shot at?
MR KHOTLE: If I'm not mistaken there were three, if I remember well. I'm not quite sure, maybe there could have been two or three but what I know is that one person died.
CHAIRPERSON: And just for clarity here again, in your affidavit, paragraph 10, who is Solly, what is Solly's name?
MR KHOTLE: It's Zola Mabala.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry? Zola Mabala.
MR KHOTLE: Zola Mabala. M-a-b-a-l-a.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes and who is Boysi?
MR KHOTLE: I only know him by that name, I don't know his full names.
CHAIRPERSON: And then if you go to the Heilbron attack, the last page of your affidavit, who is Muleme?
MR KHOTLE: It's Washington Mafanya.
CHAIRPERSON: Your co-applicant?
MR KHOTLE: That is correct, he is present.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you ever arrested or tried in respect of these two incidents that you've related now?
MR KHOTLE: No sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions?
ADV MOTATA: Before he does Mr Chairperson, may I again come in and refer to page 20? Before I do so, this operation was in the evening?
CHAIRPERSON: Which one are you talking about?
ADV MOTATA: The shooting of the settlers, the police.
Because I'll tell you why I'm asking that question and will ask for translation into English because I'll read it in Sotho as written.
"On Wednesday on that day when we were at Heilbron, during the night on that Wednesday at 9 o'clock while we were waiting for a police van which was supposed to deliver other policemen who were off duty, it arrived before time or I would say that van took another route. Whilst we were still in the cemetery before the library building, if I'm not mistaken, we saw then a Corolla which belonged to the police."
What was the lighting like if you could see the people in the evening what they looked like? Let's start with the lighting where you were standing to ambush the vehicle which had to deliver police who had knocked off from work? How clear was it at that time? I want you to help me, sir.
MR KHOTLE: It was at night during that time.
ADV MOTATA: Is that correct? Maybe you have a problem that you are combining these two operations?
MR KHOTLE: The Boipatong operation happened in the morning when the commander ordered us to shoot any settler who passes there. The one I'm talking about happened at night. Those people were police.
ADV MOTATA: June 1993 attack at SAP at Heilbron, when did that one happen, what time of the day?
MR KHOTLE: It happened at night, sir.
ADV MOTATA: I have no problem then because when I read your affidavit, I'll repeat, "On Wednesday" I want you to read it with me. The seventh line from the top.
"On Wednesday, on that week when we were in Heilbron during the night on Wednesday"
You see, now my question is, you were saying it was in the evening and you had to ambush a police van. Either it took another direction or you came after it had gone past. Would I be understanding this correctly?
MR KHOTLE: I requesting that you repeat your question, maybe I don't understand you clearly?
ADV MOTATA: So let's put it crisply, because it was in the evening, what was the visibility like where you were standing at the kerb?
MR KHOTLE: We did not have light.
ADV MOTATA: But you were able to identify a police car?
MR KHOTLE: If I remember well, it had the SAP registration, if I remember well.
ADV MOTATA: But you were able to identify that it was a police car? Could you see the occupants of that car?
MR KHOTLE: Even if they were black policemen we would attack them.
ADV MOTATA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any questions arising?
MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mpshe?
ADV MPSHE: None Mr Chairperson, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE
CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Khotle, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.
WITNESS EXCUSED
