Amnesty Hearings

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I be permitted to refer to a matter which I raised with you in Chambers this morning and this afternoon in the presence of my learned friends, and Ms Thabethe, concerning the witness Modise. Chairperson, you heard the evidence of Loots that he received information from Mr Modise on Old Year's Day 1986 and that he with his permission went and spoke to his source, to confirm the information which was that Sadie Pule and Take Five would stay over in a particular house that night. Mr Crause gave evidence as to what role Mr Modise fulfilled on the evening in question and that was to go and point out a house which he says he did in his company. May I respectfully submit Chairperson, that it does not seem, unless there is something else, there does not seem to be any compelling reason why Mr Modise should be called personally to give evidence? The reason why I say all of this Chairperson, is that Mr Modise is a retired Officer of the South African Police, he was a member of the Security Branch and he lives in a black neighbourhood and he has certain fears, very real fears, that harm might come to him and his family or their possessions, should his identity become known and certain things have happened here today, which we informed you about, which strengthens that feeling of his. We would ask you Mr Chairperson, this has happened before, in similar circumstances, where other witnesses had given evidence, which really covered the evidence that a particular applicant can give, whether you would not be prepared to excuse him from giving evidence before you? Unless there is a special reason why he should?

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Visser, but his identity is known, it has been mentioned here, his role had been mentioned. I believe even the proposed victims or one of them at least, is present, so he has been identified? Isn't the harm done?

MR VISSER: It may well be Chairperson, but as we sit here until now, we are not aware of any photographs having been taken of him, he hasn't been on television cameras. Once he steps into the witness box, all that will change and it will certainly increase the danger if there is a danger right now, it will certainly increase it. We didn't think it was a situation where we should ask you for a hearing to be held in camera because in any event the victims or their relations are entitled to attend in camera hearings. It is only in that event, from our understanding of Section 33 that you could make an order in terms of Section 22, that no photographs or other identifying information be made available. Chairperson, I place it before you, he has a concern and we would follow whatever directions you give obviously.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Visser, we obviously are sensitive to all these kind of questions that do arise around these proceedings. We obviously want to, as far as it is possible and within our authority, our statutory authority, to be of assistance. We have given the matter some thought pursuant to our earlier discussion and there are some aspects of the application of Mr Modise on which my panel would like to hear him on. He had made out a case on paper which in a sense personalises his application in some respects, my attention has been drawn to certain sections of his application, so you know, in this particular instance, it appears that he is not just one of those people that can just sort of tag along, that wouldn't really add very much to the enquiry. That is something that weighed with us and we had thought that if the question that you raised, which is also a very serious one, does not totally outweigh the other considerations, we would prefer to hear him. In fact we also had a debate whether we had statutory authority to actually release him, but that might not necessary to argue that at this stage.

MR VISSER: That is why I prefaced my remarks to you by saying unless there is something that you want to specifically hear from him. Once that is so, well then Chairperson, then I call him as a witness. He will address the Committee in Tswana.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Visser, is Mr Modise here? Yes?

MR PRINSLOO: Excuse me Mr Chairperson, are we going to continue with the other case still today?

CHAIRPERSON: No, I am sorry, I didn't keep my eye on you. I did indicate to you that we will not expect you to sit here all day long, if it is clear that we will not reach you, but we can excuse you at this stage. We will adjourn until half past nine tomorrow morning, so you may return tomorrow morning. Very well. Mr Modise, perhaps if you could put on the headphones so that you can hear the translation. Mr Modise, we just want to check whether you can hear, do you hear the translation?

INTERPRETER: He can hear me clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wagener, can you just help him to - can you give your full name for the record please.

MR MODISE: Moses Mohalani Modise.

MOSES MOHALANI MODISE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may sit down Mr Modise. All right Mr Visser?

EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Modise, you are an applicant for amnesty before this Committee, is that correct?

MR MODISE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And it concerns a matter which occurred on Old Year's Eve of 1986 at Ramotswa in Botswana?

MR MODISE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Do you have your amnesty application before you, at page 178 of Bundle 1, Chairperson.

MR MODISE: Yes, I can see it.

MR VISSER: Is that the application which you handed in to the Amnesty Committee and which you signed?

MR MODISE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And are the particulars contained therein, to the best of your knowledge true and correct?

MR MODISE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Have you - has Exhibit A been discussed with you and explained to you, that is the background document? I am just told by my Attorney that that is not relevant here Chairperson. During 1986, is it correct that there was a struggle going on in this country and that people were fighting with each other?

MR MODISE: That is so sir.

MR VISSER: Yes, and is it correct that the ANC/SACP alliance attempted to overthrow the then government?

MR MODISE: That is true.

MR VISSER: And did you as a Security Policeman consider it your duty to fight that revolutionary onslaught?

MR MODISE: That is true.

MR VISSER: Now what happened at the time that gave rise to this incident, Mr Modise?

MR MODISE: I got information that there are some people in a house at Ramotswa and I told my colleague, which was my Station Commander about this.

MR VISSER: That you got information about?

MR MODISE: It was my informer, my source.

MR VISSER: What did your informer tell you?

MR MODISE: He or she told me that there were freedom fighters in Ramotswa at a certain house.

MR VISSER: Can you remember the names of those freedom fighters?

MR MODISE: Yes, it was Sadie Pule and Take Five.

MR VISSER: And what were they going to do at that house?

MR MODISE: They were staying there.

MR VISSER: Were they going to stay there that night?

MR MODISE: According to my source, they have been staying there, but they were going to be there that night.

MR VISSER: Who was your Commander that you spoke about, that you told about this information?

MR MODISE: I told Lieutenant Wehrmann.

MR VISSER: All right, and what happened after that?

MR MODISE: After having told him, he contacted Brigadier Loots and shared the news. They asked me to go to my source and to establish these facts.

MR VISSER: Yes, what happened then?

MR MODISE: We arranged a meeting and he told them exactly what he or she had told me.

MR VISSER: That is the source told Brigadier Loots and Lieutenant Wehrmann what he had already told you? Is that what you are saying?

MR MODISE: Yes, I was in their company when he or she told them.

MR VISSER: What happened as far as you are concerned, what happened thereafter?

MR MODISE: We went to the office and I was no longer at their side, but they made a call and thereafter they told me to come to Nietverdiendt.

MR VISSER: Did you go?

MR MODISE: Yes, I did go.

MR VISSER: What happened there?

MR MODISE: On my arrival at Nietverdiendt, I found Brigadier Loots and Colonel Smit and Lieutenant Wehrmann and three other black men and two other white men.

MR VISSER: What was discussed there?

MR MODISE: On my arrival I was told that "these are the men who are going to carry out the operation that we were discussing during the day, they don't want to make any mistakes, therefore they want you to go out and point out this house."

MR VISSER: What did you understand that operation to be?

MR MODISE: According to my understanding, I saw that they were determined to attack this house and with the intention of finding Take Five and Sadie Pule.

MR VISSER: What to do with them?

MR MODISE: The intention might have been to kill them, but they were targeted because they gave South Africa trouble.

MR VISSER: Yes, so you realised that the operation included possibly killing Sadie Pule and Take Five?

MR MODISE: Yes, it is so.

MR VISSER: Did you also believe that other people might get injured or killed in such an operation?

MR MODISE: I didn't have that in my mind, it did not cross my mind.

MR VISSER: Just to go back one step, you told us who you remembered who were present and you said Loots, Smit and Wehrmann. Can you remember whether Mr Crause was there as well?

MR MODISE: He had not arrived yet.

MR VISSER: I see, all right. So what happened after this discussion and after your understanding was formed, what happened then?

MR MODISE: In the evening, we went on board a casspir and we drove towards the border.

MR VISSER: You were now going to point out the house, is that correct?

MR MODISE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you go and point out the house?

MR MODISE: Yes, I did.

MR VISSER: Yes, did you see Mr Crause there?

MR MODISE: Whilst we were still at Nietverdiendt, he arrived and he came with. He was also present when we left for the border.

MR VISSER: At the border, did he do anything?

MR MODISE: The river was full and I was scared because I cannot swim. On arrival at the border, he was given instructions by Brigadier Loots to help me cross the river as I was scared of swimming.

MR VISSER: All right, when you got to the other side, did you then go and point out the house to the Special Forces' people?

MR MODISE: Yes, I did that.

MR VISSER: Are you certain that you pointed out the correct house?

MR MODISE: Yes, I showed them the right house.

MR VISSER: What happened then if you can remember?

MR MODISE: When we got there, I pointed the house and the one white gentleman took me and Mr Crause and he told us to keep a distance, to stay in hiding and once his mission is over, he will come for us.

MR VISSER: This person, was he also a Policeman? This person and the others that went with you and Crause, were they Policemen or what were they?

MR MODISE: I do not think so, I did not know him, it was the first time seeing him.

MR VISSER: All right. What did you see happen at the house?

MR MODISE: As we were laying there, I heard a very loud explosion and I got very frightened and I heard some fires being shot extremely, and I got very scared and frightened.

MR VISSER: You said you heard some fires being shot, what are you trying to say?

MR MODISE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Gunfire?

MR MODISE: Yes, it was gunfire. Firstly it was a high explosive, I am not sure whether it is a bomb or a grenade and thereafter it was gunshots.

MR VISSER: All right, did you see the people come back to you then that went to the house?

MR MODISE: Thereafter they came to us and told us we must go.

MR VISSER: All right, did they say anything else about what happened in the house?

MR MODISE: I was so frightened that I didn't want to hear anything. We just proceeded back.

MR VISSER: Right, and is that all that you had to do with this incident?

MR MODISE: There is nothing else other than that.

MR VISSER: And you were involved in it because you were ordered by Brigadier Loots to go and point out the house?

MR MODISE: That is true.

MR VISSER: Did you think that you had to obey that order as part of your duties?

MR MODISE: There was no alternative, I had to obey the order, whether you like it or not.

MR VISSER: And the attack as you understood it, was against supporters or members of the ANC, is that correct?

MR MODISE: That is true.

MR VISSER: Who was the enemy of the previous government?

MR MODISE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Mohlaba, questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Modise, did you before this incident know Sadie Pule and Take Five?

MR MODISE: No, I did not know them.

MR MOHLABA: And have you, did you hear those names before, other than knowing them personally, the names?

MR MODISE: Yes, I knew about their names and their operations through the other reports that we got from other stations.

MR MOHLABA: After you had obtained information from your informer, you said you passed it to Lieutenant Wehrmann, is that correct?

MR MODISE: That is true.

MR MOHLABA: Can you remember when did you communicate this information to Lieutenant Wehrmann?

MR MODISE: It was in the morning, just after nine o'clock. It was on the 31st of December 1986.

MR MOHLABA: And where was that, that is were you with Lieutenant Wehrmann in one place or did you communicate that information to him telephonically?

MR MODISE: I met my source and then I told my source to wait for me whilst I go and hand over this information and hear what my Commanders have to say.

MR MOHLABA: And you went to meet your Commander, is that correct?

MR MODISE: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: Where did you meet this Commander of yours?

MR MODISE: In the office.

MR MOHLABA: Where, where, is it in Botswana or South Africa?

MR MODISE: In Zeerust.

MR MOHLABA: The identity of your informer, can you disclose it?

MR VISSER: Chairperson, with great respect, it is not a question that is ...

MR MODISE: No, I cannot.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you.

MR VISSER: I am sorry, if I may interrupt, it is not that he doesn't know who it is, he knows who the identity is, but he says he can't disclose the identity for other reasons, as long as that is understood by my learned friend. He knows who it is of course.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that seems to be the (indistinct) of the answer. You've got that Mr Mohlaba?

MR MOHLABA: Yes, thank you Chair. Is there any reason why you cannot disclose the name of this person?

MR MODISE: It won't help us to reveal that person.

MR MOHLABA: I believe that it will assist the victims to know the truth and it will also assist you to pass the full disclosure test.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mohlaba, we have already heard that this witness, according to what his Counsel said, he is worried about his own safety. Should we really involve the threat of the safety of another man also and there was a number of applications for informers to be disclosed on various sides, and there was a ruling that informers' names wouldn't be disclosed. I think for the safety of this person, I would ask you, but if you want to make a formal application, you could do so.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair, I was not aware of such a ruling, I am indebted to the Chair. When did you receive information from this informer of yours?

MR MODISE: It was on the 31st of December 1986.

MR MOHLABA: Can you explain to the Committee how it came about, did you go to this informer and solicit certain information or the informer came to you and volunteered information to you?

MR MODISE: He telephoned me for a meeting and we did meet and that is when he gave me all the details which I forwarded.

MR MOHLABA: And you mentioned that the information was that certain, there were freedom fighters in a particular house there. Were these freedom fighters mentioned by name?

MR MODISE: He said it is freedom fighters, but I went to pick up a photo album so that he should be able to point them out to me.

MR MOHLABA: So you had photographs of - whose photo's did you have in that photo album?

MR MODISE: In that photo album Take Five was in there and Sadie Pule.

MR MOHLABA: So the photo's of Take Five and Sadie were pointed out to you by your informer, is that correct?

MR MODISE: Yes, he pointed them out.

MR MOHLABA: You then went to your office in Zeerust and spoke to Lieutenant Wehrmann about that, is that correct?

MR MODISE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, whilst you are on that point, how many freedom fighters did the informer tell you were in this particular house?

MR MODISE: He said there were two.

CHAIRPERSON: And he then pointed out Take Five and Sadie Pule from the album?

MR MODISE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry Mr Mohlaba.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chair. I was still asking you that you subsequently went to your office in Zeerust and communicated the information to Lieutenant Wehrmann, is that correct?

MR MODISE: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: Was it Lieutenant Wehrmann alone that you talked to about this incident?

MR MODISE: When I told him this, he was alone.

MR MOHLABA: Do you know whether somebody else was subsequently told that in your presence that is, you say when you told him, he was alone, but did somebody come and join you?

MR MODISE: Brigadier Loots came and he told him.

MR MOHLABA: Whilst you were there?

MR MODISE: Yes, I was present.

MR MOHLABA: And you mentioned that you were sent back to your informer to go and verify certain things, is that correct?

MR MODISE: No. Firstly I had come to tell Lieutenant Wehrmann that my source had pointed out these people and whilst we were busy talking, Brigadier Loots arrived and Brigadier Loots requested that we all go to my source so that he should personally enquire from my source and I agreed.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Mr Mohlaba to interrupt, when your source pointed out these two people in the photo album, did you know who they were?

MR MODISE: ... (tape ends) ... when I checked them out, I realised that they were well known people, I only knew their names. I but I didn't link the names and the faces at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, I see, so you had heard these names Take Five and Sadie Pule, but you didn't realise that it was them when this source pointed out these two people in the photo album, would that be correct?

MR MODISE: I only knew about them.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't know when the photographs were pointed out by the source, you didn't know them oh, he is pointing out Take Five and Sadie Pule?

MR MODISE: When he pointed them, I knew that it was Sadie Pule and Take Five, in the album there are names written as well, so when he pointed them out, I knew then.

CHAIRPERSON: You had to look up the names in the index?

MR MODISE: That is correct, I had to look up the names in the index of the album.

CHAIRPERSON: ... could he give you the names or what?

MR MODISE: He knew them in any other way he or she might have, he knew them facially. He just pointed them out.

CHAIRPERSON: ... know their names, is that right?

MR MODISE: He knew Take Five, he knew them, both of them. They were known to him or her.

CHAIRPERSON: ... the question, did he give their names to you?

MR MODISE: He just pointed them with a finger.

ADV DE JAGER: Before he saw the photo's, could he, did he come to you and say I have seen two MK members there, I know them, the one's name is this and the other one's name is this, or didn't he?

MR MODISE: No, he did not mention their names, he just said there are two people staying at such a house. That is when I fetched the photo album and he or she then pointed them out and I discovered their names in the index.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he get paid for that sort of thing if he comes to you with information about freedom fighters, do you pay him?

MR MODISE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you pay him for the information he brings to you?

MR MODISE: I never gave him or her anything.

CHAIRPERSON: So this wasn't a paid informer?

MR MODISE: No, I have never seen him or her being paid anything.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, perhaps you wouldn't know. Mr Mohlaba?

MR MOHLABA: Thank you Chairperson. Did you try and establish how did your source know that these two persons were freedom fighters?

MR MODISE: I had told him or her to find out if there are any freedom fighters that he might have spotted or not, because they were called refugees then. They didn't call them freedom fighters, they called them refugees.

MR MOHLABA: So in other words you went to this source and asked this source to be on the look out for refugees so that he or she could come and advise you, is that correct?

MR MODISE: That is correct.

MR MOHLABA: You were still telling us about Lieutenant Wehrmann and Brigadier Loots requesting to go and meet with your source. Did you subsequently go and meet your source?

MR MODISE: Yes, I did.

MR MOHLABA: And can you recall the time approximately when you met with the source?

MR MODISE: If I can recall clearly, it might have been eleven o'clock.

MR MOHLABA: Where did you meet with this source?

MR MODISE: In the Zeerust vicinity.

MR MOHLABA: Was it in an office or in the veld, can you explain?

MR MODISE: It was just in the open veld.

MR MOHLABA: And this source was interviewed by, was he or she interviewed?

MR MODISE: He was questioned by Brigadier Loots.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you, I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mohlaba. Ms Thabethe, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair, thank you. Mr Modise, you speak about an album that you saw or that your source identified Take Five and Sadie Pule, what was this album about, why were their photo's in that album?

MR MODISE: It is an album of people who went for military training and they would come back fully trained and fight inside the country.

MS THABETHE: So would it be correct for me to say they were wanted people?

MR MODISE: Yes, in other words they were wanted.

MS THABETHE: You also say, you have also testified that when you received the information about the so-called refugees, you went to Wehrmann, you reported this to Wehrmann, what was his response?

MR MODISE: I went in there, told him and showed him the photo album and we all knew that they were freedom fighters.

MS THABETHE: No my question was, what was his response? What did he say when you showed him this, these photo's and when you told him what the informer had told you?

MR MODISE: He rejoiced and he decided to phone Brigadier Loots, but fortunately he had just walked in, Brigadier Loots, and that is when he shared the news with him.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Modise, that first meeting with the source, just remind me, where did that take place?

MR MODISE: We met in the Zeerust vicinity.

CHAIRPERSON: In the Republic of South Africa?

MR MODISE: Yes, in the South African Republic.

CHAIRPERSON: And your subsequent meeting where Loots was also present, was that also in the Zeerust vicinity?

MR MODISE: Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Also in the Republic?

MR MODISE: Yes sir, also in the Republic.

CHAIRPERSON: What did the source tell you about the whereabouts of these refugees, the two refugees?

MR MODISE: He or she told me that they are staying at such and such a house.

CHAIRPERSON: What does that mean, stay at such and such a house? What did the source tell you?

MR MODISE: It was a house in Botswana.

CHAIRPERSON: Where, where in Botswana, exactly what did he tell you, or she tell you? What did he or she tell you?

MR MODISE: He or she told me that there were two refugees who were staying in a house at Ramotswa in Botswana.

CHAIRPERSON: ... is that a town?

MR MODISE: It is a village.

CHAIRPERSON: In Botswana?

MR MODISE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Where in the village, what did he tell you?

MR MODISE: Yes, it is a village in Botswana.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but what did he or she tell you, where in this village or did he just say in the village of whatever the name is?

MR MODISE: He or she had drawn a sketch showing directions from the Botswana border and he told me that I will have to pass a (indistinct) on the road and walk 500 metres or so and the house will be on the right hand side, it is the first house on the right hand side.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't know where this house was, he or she had to explain to you?

MR MODISE: Yes, he or she had explained to me precisely where the house is so that I should be sure.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he or she give you a sketch or did he or she just explain to you how to get to this house?

MR MODISE: He or she drew a sketch for me about the exact location of the house.

CHAIRPERSON: You have never been to this particular house before in your life, would that be correct?

MR MODISE: I had never been there before, but when he showed me with his sketch, I realised where the house is because I am familiar with the Ramotswa village.

CHAIRPERSON: So you then on the strength of what this informer or source had told you, and on the strength of the sketch, you then went to point out a house in the dark, is that right?

MR MODISE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know it was the right house?

MR MODISE: It is the house because he or she told me it is the first house on your right hand side.

CHAIRPERSON: ... right house, I am trying to test that.

MR MODISE: It had a wire fencing as he or she had described it. Also it was built of iron zinc.

CHAIRPERSON: Corrugated iron?

INTERPRETER: Yes, corrugated iron sheets, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: So you then went on this information and how close did you get to this house that you pointed out eventually?

MR MODISE: I stood by the gate when I pointed it out, right at the gate and I told them this is the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Was Crause with you?

MR MODISE: Yes, he was with me.

CHAIRPERSON: At the gate?

MR MODISE: Yes, he was with me at the gate.

CHAIRPERSON: What did these - let me first ask you, how many were they, the others that were with you and Crause, how many were they?

MR MODISE: They were three.

CHAIRPERSON: Three? So what did they then do when you pointed the house out?

MR MODISE: After pointing the house out, they took me and Crause and left us at a distance from the house.

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I am going to have to just, you said - I think you were trying to explain that you went somewhere else. I am going to go back. When you pointed out the house to these three, what happened then?

MR MODISE: The white man who was with the others, he took me and Mr Crause and left us at some distance from the house. He instructed us to stay there until he is finished with his mission and he will come and fetch us.

CHAIRPERSON: When he walked with you and Mr Crause, what did the other two that were with him, what did they do?

MR MODISE: When he went back, I heard a very high explosive, it sounded like it was a handgrenade and then I heard gunshots.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Modise, did you want to see anybody killed there on that scene?

MR MODISE: No, I did not want to see anybody killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you, what were you thinking, were you involved in some political fight at that time, was that part of a political fight that you were fighting, your actions?

MR MODISE: It was a political fight.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have political enemies at that time?

MR MODISE: I was a Policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: I am asking you now, you can tell us, did you have any, you Mr Modise, did you have any political enemies at that time?

MR MODISE: Yes, I was a Security man and nobody wanted nor liked Security men at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I am not talking about it from the other side, I am talking from your own side, the way you saw things, did you have any, did you regard any other people as your political enemies perhaps to make it more clear?

MR MODISE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Which people?

MR MODISE: Freedom fighters.

CHAIRPERSON: You regarded freedom fighters as your political enemy?

MR MODISE: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know whether anybody was killed in this particular house?

MR MODISE: I heard reports that there was somebody who died.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was that, was that a freedom fighter or who was that? Was it part of your enemy or who was it that died?

MR MODISE: I do not know. I do not know the person.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, you don't know the identity of the person who got killed?

MR MODISE: I heard thereafter that it was the owner of the house that was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have anything against that particular person?

MR MODISE: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you regard that person as your political enemy?

MR MODISE: No sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps they have asked you but perhaps I must just ask you again, did you expect that people could get killed here or not?

MR MODISE: Please repeat your question.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you expect that people would get killed in this incident?

MR MODISE: Yes, I was expecting that possibility.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, thank you.

ADV GCABASHE : Thank you Chair. Just two brief issues. The one, Mr Modise, stems from my reading of Exhibit O, the report you got from your source was that these two refugees had been staying in this house for a while and I would call that for about two weeks, is that what you were told?

MR MODISE: I do not know how long had they stayed in that house, but I just learnt that there were refugees staying there.

ADV GCABASHE : Staying there, but the report was not that they had just arrived, would spend the night and would be leaving the next day, I just want to be absolutely clear about the report?

MR MODISE: No, that is not what I heard.

ADV GCABASHE : Okay, now the other area is the area of the political motive, political objective, if you look at page 181 of Volume 1, Bundle 1, your statement, paragraph 6 and 7 thereof and if you just read that very quickly.

MR MODISE: To fight for the right for myself, my family and the general public, to carry on existing in South Africa as our forefathers had lived, with special reference to our heritage, background, culture and political lifestyle.

ADV GCABASHE : Point 7?

MR MODISE: To try to conserve everything that was created on the South African soil and to see to it that the status quo continues.

ADV GCABASHE : ... the question is when I read that, I wasn't sure I understood what you meant by this. If you could just help me understand what you, Mr Modise, means by this, if anything at all, I don't know. What are you saying to us essentially here?

MR MODISE: To fight for the right for myself and my family and the general public, to carry on existing as our forefathers had lived.

ADV GCABASHE : Please explain what you mean by this, that is all, in your own words, what is it that you are saying to us about your political objective and what is stated here, just help me out.

MR MODISE: I was fighting against all the unrest in order to bring peace, people shouldn't be killed any more.

ADV GCABASHE : By preserving the South African State as it was in 1986, you felt you were fighting to preserve peace and avoid unrest, is this what you are saying? That is what you believed then?

MR MODISE: That is true.

ADV GCABASHE : The culture, the political life style, all of that, those were things that you wanted to maintain at that particular time of history, you wanted to maintain those things you had, the position you were in at that time?

MR MODISE: Yes, at that time.

ADV GCABASHE : But you are also saying that you were acting as a Policeman, you are saying those two things. You were also executing your duties as a Policeman?

MR MODISE: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE : And there isn't the one thing that was valued higher by you than the other, your job or your motivation that you were happy with the status quo as it was and believed that you wanted to maintain it, is there a sense of which had greater value, a sense of priorities at all? No?

MR MODISE: I just wanted to bring peace.

ADV GCABASHE : Thank you Mr Modise, thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any re-examination Mr Visser?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Just one question, Mr Chairperson, thank you with your leave. Was it within your knowledge that the ANC/SACP regarded Policemen as legitimate targets to be killed?

MR MODISE: That is so sir.

MR VISSER: Did that then make them your enemy as well?

MR MODISE: That is true sir.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Modise, thank you very much, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR VISSER: Might he be excused from further attendance Chairperson, he comes from rather far and he is being fetched every day and it would save some expenses if he could. Those are all the witnesses, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is in order. We will adjourn and reconvene at half past nine tomorrow morning.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS