CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon everybody. I apologise for the late start. There's some confusion about whether the matter was set down for today or tomorrow and some of the applicants arrived late and I apologise for any inconvenience caused. We'll be commencing today with the hearings in the matters of R Kasrils in Mncube and Nondula and J Mbuli. If you wish to benefit from the interpretation, the proceedings will be simultaneously translated, so if you want to benefit from the translation, you must be in possession of one of these devices. They are available from the sound engineer and before we start I would just like to briefly introduce the Panel to you. On my right is Adv Francis Bosman, she comes from the Cape, a member of the Amnesty Committee. On my left is Mr Jonas Sibanyoni, also a member of the Amnesty Committee. He is an attorney and he comes from Pretoria and I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge of the High Court attached to the Transkei Division of the Court.
I would at this stage request the legal representatives to kindly place themselves on record.
MR KOOPEDI: I am Brian Koopedi. I am attorney for the applicants before you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Koopedi.
MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, Jan Wagener, I appear on behalf of a victim, Mr Johannes Frederik van Eck. Thank you.
MR DE BEER: Mr Chairman, Eduan de Beer, I'm an attorney. I'm appearing on behalf of a victim, Mr Johannes Jacobus De Nysschen. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Young you mentioned earlier you'll be assisting Mr De Beer. Yes. Thank you.
MS MTANGA: Chairperson, Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Mr Koopedi, what is the position relating to Mr Kasrils, as discussed earlier, we've of the view that this is in fact an application.
MR KOOPEDI ADDRESS: As the Committee pleases. Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, it is correct that Mr Kasrils was or is included in the names of the applicants that are to appear before you in this matter. However, Chairperson, careful analysis, or if one looks carefully at his application form, Mr Kasrils does not apply for amnesty for any of the operations that were carried out by the applicants that are before you. He is also not mentioned in any of the applications that are before you. I would like, Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, to briefly take you through the application of Mr Kasrils which is part of the bundle that is before you and perhaps also give a brief background as to how and when this amnesty application was completed and sent forward.
At an early stage, Chairperson, when the amnesty process started, Mr Kasrils together with other leading ANC members, that is members of the National Executive Committee, they all completed application forms which were to a certain extent, applications for amnesty for these leaders who were taking a collective responsibility with regard the cadres and all the people who functioned under them.
However, Mr Kasrils completed a more detailed application form, than simply an application form that would refer you to the ANC declaration and say that we take collective responsibility. He states on page three of the papers before you, there are two threes, so I'll say the first three, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: He states on that page and that is the third paragraph from the bottom, I'm reading the last sentence of that application that
"I am submitting a more detailed application in the interest of full disclosure and to facilitate the work of the Committee."
He goes on in the next paragraph, I'm only quoting to you the last line also where he starts by saying:
"I wish to accept responsibility for those persons who acted under my command and to apply for amnesty for any acts that may fall within the ambit of the Act."
Chairperson it's my submission that for any application to fall within the ambit of the Act, it must be an application for a specific incident or operation and the applicant must be in a position to fully disclose all the material facts related to that operation. The incidents that are to be before you here concerning the landmines in this area, Mr Kasrils will not be in a position to give you any details about those details due to the fact that he was not part of the units that were in this area that carried out these operations. He was also not even part of the command structure, or the Commanders that commanded these units.
If we look at his application, Chairperson, he mentions incidents where he was directly and personally involved. I refer you to page 6, Chairperson, of the bundle of documents and he refers to what he calls the De Lange unit. He says on the last page, I mean in the last sentence of the first paragraph on this issue he says:
"I regard this as a special unit which both collected information inside the country and carried out operations and (underlined, Chairperson) under my command in 1986 and in 1987."
These operatives were directly commanded by him and in this instance, this is not the case, as you will see in the course of giving evidence.
I go on, Chairperson. I refer you to the next incident on page 7 where he speaks about the Pietersburg Holiday Inn Anthea's Club. I will read the first part of it:
"Another operation which falls into the category described above,"
and the interesting part is the one that is put in brackets, that is:
"(where I was involved with a unit that carried out reconnaissance as well as the operation)."
Now if you go to the paragraph which I believe led the evidence analyst in this matter to include him here, this is the paragraph which is entitled "Landmine Operations".
In this paragraph he states what his roll was. As it could be seen earlier on he has mentioned that at this time he was the head of Military Intelligence and Military Intelligence provided maps of border areas and the farm and security network. Instructions were given on reconnaissance methods. No instructions were given by him that anyone should come and reconnoitre the area in Messina. He says he gave instructions on how to do reconnaissance, how to plan for this and on the collection of data.
It is therefore my submission Chairperson, that Mr Kasrils did not at any stage intend to apply for amnesty with regard to this matter.
Finally, Chairperson, I will say that from my consultations with him, it became clear that not only is he not knowledgeable about the specifics of these matters, but that they were similar kind of applications which I believe, they were held in Nelspruit concerning the Mpumalanga area, where some people appeared and also got amnesty. At the time when those Mpumalanga operations were carried out, Mr Kasrils occupied the same position, that is vis a vis the time when these were carried out and my submission is that he was not called to appear in those hearings, he was not an applicant in those hearings, for the simple reason he had no direct knowledge of the facts that would apply here.
But finally Chairperson, I believe the underlying statement would be that even if he had wished to apply for this incident, his application would not fall within the ambit of the Act because he would have applied for something he does not know.
Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, as said earlier when this matter was brought to our attention this morning as members of the Panel looked into this and we're certainly of the view that the way it's set out in the application form where it was - we considered it to be an application. I mean otherwise why mention it together with these other applications? He states that he came, visited the operatives and that sort of thing, but it's up to Mr Kasrils, we - it's regarded by the Committee as being an application which means that two routes can be followed now. We can merely remove it from the roll, his application and proceed with the application of the other three gentlemen. From what you've said, you won't be withdrawing it because you don't consider it to be an application, so perhaps the best route to follow would be then just to withdraw it, to remove it from the roll of this hearing.
MR KOOPEDI: I would have no problem with that Chairperson and I must say that the other three applicants are ready to proceed. Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. So we'll remove the application of Mr Kasrils from the roll of this hearing. Yes, Mr Koopedi.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, the three applicants before you are the other three, other than Mr Kasrils, as listed in the bundle of documents or on the schedule. We propose with leave of this Honourable Committee to change their order of appearance.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly. You can call them in any order you wish Mr Koopedi.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. The first applicant that will be heard would be number three in the list who is Mzondelele Euthlid Nondula and the second one would be your number four, Jabulani Sydney Mbuli and the third one would be the number two, Mthetheleli Zephania Mncube.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR KOOPEDI: Mr Nondula is before you Chairperson and ready to be sworn in.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
