CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. These proceedings will be simultaneously translated and if you wish to benefit from the translation, you must be in possession of one of these devices. I see the sound engineer is handing them out. You've just got to tune into the correct channel for your language and you'll get the translation.
Before we start, I'd like to briefly introduce the Panel to you. On my right is Adv Francis Bosman. She's a member of the Amnesty Committee and she comes from the Cape. On my left is Mr Jonas Sibanyoni. Mr Sibanyoni is also a member of the Amnesty Committee and he is an attorney from Pretoria and I am Selwyn Miller, I'm a Judge of the High Court and I'm attached to the Transkei Division of the High Court.
We will today be listening to the applications of Messrs Z A Mhlongo and A M Masil, I'm not quite sure how you pronounce it and at this stage I would request the legal representatives to kindly place themselves on record.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo. I'm representing the applicants in this matter and I'm from the Eastern Cape in East London. Thank.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Chairperson, I'm Adv J A van der Heever. I'm representing the Bouwer family.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van der Heever. Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson the first applicant to testify will be Zweli Absolon Mhlongo, Chairperson and he will be speaking Zulu.
ZWELI ABSOLON MHLONGO: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo's application commences at page 1 of the bundle of documents before us.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson.
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Mhlongo, is it correct that you were born on the 20th May 1972 in Alexander?
MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee how far have you gone to school?
MR MHLONGO: I went as far as Standard 4.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell, Mr Mhlongo, when did you join PAC?
MR MHLONGO: In 1986.
MR MBANDAZAYO: How old were you when you joined PAC?
MR MHLONGO: 14 years.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct that you indeed went to exile and when did you go to exile?
MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, can you tell the Committee which year did you got to exile?
MR MHLONGO: 1987.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct that in exile you joined APLA which is the military wing of the PAC?
MR MHLONGO: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, where were you trained as an APLA cadre?
MR MHLONGO: In Uganda as well as Tanzania.
MR MBANDAZAYO: How long did your training take?
MR MHLONGO: Two years in Uganda and one year in Tanzania.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee in which field were you trained?
MR MHLONGO: I was trained in infantry.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Now Mr Mhlongo, when did you come back to the country?
MR MHLONGO: In 93.
MR MBANDAZAYO: At what time in 93? The beginning of the year, the middle of the year, or at the end of the year?
MR MHLONGO: On the 10th of May 1993.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct to say that the year 1993 was the year in which the Commander of APLA, Sabelo Pama declared the year of the Great Storm in which you came back.
MR MHLONGO: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Mr Mhlongo, when you came inside the country, how many were you, or were you alone?
MR MHLONGO: There were four of us.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes. Tell the Committee about those. Who were those people?
MR MHLONGO: I cannot recall their surnames, they are people residing in different places. We all came in one plane. One that I can remember is Shepherd Mogale.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Mr Mhlongo, you are applying for amnesty for two incidents. Can you tell the Committee whether at the time you came inside the country, did you become active in APLA activities or not?
MR MHLONGO: On arrival on the 10th of May, I spent some time in the township until around September, October, up until Moses Motapo came to fetch me.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes. Can you - Chairperson Moses Motapo is the one who has been referred in most of the applications as Morapapa, Chairperson. He has been mentioned in many applications Chairperson. I've been given his name as Moses Motapo, but the others knew him as Morapapa or Moss. Thank you Chairperson.
Now can you tell us what did Moses Motapo say to you?
MR MHLONGO: Moses Motapo was one with whom I was training in Uganda and Tanzania and I was not surprised when he came. I knew he wanted us to discuss APLA matters, maybe to go out on a mission because that is what we were trained for. When he came to Alexander I told him - he actually told me that we should go to the Northern Province where he was staying.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, continue.
MR MHLONGO: So we arrived in the Northern Province around September.
CHAIRPERSON: When you say we arrived in the Northern Province, who are you talking about?
MR MHLONGO: I'm referring to Moses Motapo. We only went to the Northern Province because he wanted to show me his homes, he has two homes. There's one in Pietersburg and another one in Alexander, so he wanted to show me his home in the Northern Province, but we then came back to Alexander Township.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, continue, what happened?
MR MHLONGO: In 1994 in February we went to the Northern Province. It was himself and Lebohang, whose other name is Silo as well as Ashley, there were four of us.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee about Silo. How did you - did you know Silo before and how did you know him?
MR MHLONGO: I knew him. He was a member of APLA. He too was trained, so I knew him from Tanzania. Actually I knew him from Alexander Township before we went into exile, so I knew him.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that your co-applicant?
MR MBANDAZAYO: No Chairperson it's the other one who I understand escaped.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. So the people who went to the Northern Province was himself, Motapo, Lebohang also known as Silo and Ashley.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson. Ashley is ...
CHAIRPERSON: Is Ashley the co-accused?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: So four of them went?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes. Now did you have, whilst you were in Alexander, did you have any contact with him before you went to the Northern Province? Did you have any contact with Silo who is Lebohang?
MR MHLONGO: Yes, we resided in the same street, in the same yard.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now how did you know Ashley?
MR MHLONGO: I knew him through Lebohang. He was a friend or known to Lebohang.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now tell the Committee, you moved or went to the Northern Province. Carry on.
MR MHLONGO: We went to the Northern Province in February. Upon arrival we were based at Moses Motapo's home, that's where we spent our time. Moses Motapo was our unit Commander, the four of us, he is the one who was commanding us. We were engaged in APLA activities. It so happened one day that Moses said we should go and look for our targets. It was on the 6th of February. We left and one person who knew that place was Ashley because he once studied there, so he knew the territory and he was our driver. He accompanied us and we went to Ebenezer Dam and Morapapa knew that place and before we went to that place, Moses Motapo said he knew that place from long ago and he said that place is always frequented by the boers. It's actually a dam. He wanted us to go there to attack the boers and we went.
It was on the 6th on a Sunday and upon arrival, it was round about 4 o'clock and there were no people, maybe we arrived late after they had left and when we came back - when we returned actually we came across a vehicle which was carrying dogs. We just drove on and one white person who was driving an Exa, a sky blue Exa, came along and as he was coming from a distance .,..(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, driving a what? What was he driving?
MR MHLONGO: He was driving an Exa.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what's an Exa? A motor vehicle, a Nissan?
MR MHLONGO: A Nissan Exa, Chairperson. It's a two door sedan.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR MHLONGO: It's a two door sedan, a Mazda - a Nissan, I mean to say.
As the vehicle was coming from a distance Moses Motapo said: "This is our first target" and when we got nearer, you see the road on which we were travelling was so narrow, such that one car had to wait for another in order to pass and this white person stopped and Ashley was driving and we had firearms. I was carrying a rifle and Moses Motapo and Lebohang had a hand grenade in his possession. Only Ashley was not armed because he was driving. Moses Motapo told him to stop this white person and pretended as if he was asking something and when the car came to a stop, myself and Moss opened the doors and removed him from the car and made him lie down and we searched him and we found nothing and we wanted to ascertain that he didn't have a firearm and he didn't. We put him in the boot. I cannot recall whether we put him in the boot of the vehicle in which he was travelling or our boot. We drove him to some place called Boyne near Moria. There was some bush there and we took him out and took him to the bush. It was myself and Moses who removed him from the boot. The other one and Lebohang, Ashley and Lebohang remained behind in the vehicle and we told Ashley and Lebohang to signal to us because we wanted to shoot the person and they would have to signal if there was no car approaching so that we could shoot the person. I remember Moses asking him which organisation he belonged to here in South Africa and he indicated that he was an AWB member and we told him that we are APLA members and we made him lie down and we shot him.
MR MBANDAZAYO: What else did you ask him?
MR MHLONGO: We undressed him and we found a bank card and we asked him how much he had and we wanted the numbers for the card. He gave us the numbers but we didn't trust him. We threatened him and we promised not to kill him if he gave us the numbers and he gave us the numbers and we took his canvas shoes, his tackies and we left him there.
MR MBANDAZAYO: What did you do after that?
MR MHLONGO: After that we left him there. We went into a car. There were two vehicles now. Myself and Ashley drove in a BMW and Lebohang and Moses Motapo drove this white person's Exa. Myself and Ashley went actually straight to Pietersburg in town, we wanted to make a withdrawal from the card that we took from the white person.
Myself and Ashley drove in Ashley's vehicle to Pietersburg, we wanted to draw some money from the card obtained from the white person and Lebohang and Silo drove in the white man's Exa. They went to Motapo's place and when we came back from Pietersburg on the same night, or actually when we got to Pietersburg, we discovered that the car - the account had about One Hundred and something and it didn't have much money. We came back and informed the other ones.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you draw that money?
MR MHLONGO: Yes we did and we left Ashley's vehicle at Morapapa's home and we drove in this white man's car to Alexandra.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, continue. What happened in Alexander?
MR MHLONGO: On the Sunday evening upon arrival in Alexander, we had to go and sell the vehicle. I think it was on a Monday, if not Tuesday morning, we went to 9th Avenue and we sold this vehicle for R7 000.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you get the money?
MR MHLONGO: Moses Motapo showed us R700. We don't know what happened to the other money because he's the one who was negotiating the deal, negotiating the price but the money that we saw was R700.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean the money that you saw?
MR MHLONGO: I mean the money that he only got from the person was R700 and that is the money that we used to go back to Pietersburg.
CHAIRPERSON: 10% deposit probably on the vehicle.
MR MHLONGO: 10% deposit.
CHAIRPERSON: Well you said he sold the vehicle for R7 000 but you only saw R700.
MR MHLONGO: I think so. That's what we discussed with Moses. We don't know whether they gave him the full money or not, but he only came with R700 to us.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you explain to the Committee, were you present when this transaction with this person to whom the car was sold, were you present when the whole transaction took place between Moses and this person?
MR MHLONGO: No, I was not.
MR MBANDAZAYO: The only thing you know is that the agreed price that this car would be sold at R7 000?
MR MHLONGO: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And Moses came back with an amount of R700?
MR MHLONGO: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now just whilst you are there, you are telling the Committee that this car was sold at R7 000 but in your statement, in your confession to the Magistrate you told them that you stripped the car and sold the car parts, of the car, can you explain that to the Committee?
MR MHLONGO: In fact we sold the vehicle, we did not strip it of its parts. We sold it to the person in the 9th Avenue. The police were beating us up and we were trying to protect the other one, that's why we told the police that we stripped the vehicle and sold its parts to various people, because we were trying to protect this person. We didn't want the police to go to this person.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, can you then proceed to the second incident?
MR MHLONGO: Okay. The second incident was, should I say we came back on a Wednesday.
CHAIRPERSON: When you say we came back, to Pietersburg?
MR MHLONGO: Correct. We went back to Pietersburg on Wednesday, it was myself and Moses. Upon arrival at the taxi rank, Ashley and others were waiting for us in a BMW and we went to Motapo's place, that's where we were based and nothing happened that week until Friday. On that Friday Moses said we should go around and reconnoitre the area to try and get another target and we went, it was on Friday night. I didn't know the Northern Province. I didn't know the places that we were going to. We went to some place around 10 at night at Rotwane and Moses saw a shop and he told Ashley to stop the vehicle, which he did and then he sent Ashley to go to the shop to buy and check the situation in the meantime so that we can go in. Ashley went in, bought some cigarettes and he came back and informed Moses that the situation was conducive for us to go in and we stopped around the shop and myself and Moses went out and we left Ashley and Lebohang behind and I was following Moses from behind. We had rifles in our possession and when we entered the door of the shop, Moses opened fire. He shot the father and the mother and there was a young boy, who could have been around 14 years old and when Moses shot the father and the mother, this young boy managed to get hold of Moses and I too was inside and they were wrestling over the firearm and Moses said: "You see what this boy's doing, shoot him" and I shot him. Even though Moses had not instructed me so, I would have shot the young boy. I shot him and I thought he had died because I shot him at close range, only later I discovered that he didn't die.
We went out. We went back into the car and drove away, but the vehicle did not drive a long distance and it broke down. We left the vehicle there and took our bag with firearms and ran away until the following day which was on a Saturday. On Saturday morning we wanted to get a vehicle, or hike away and the first vehicle that we came across was a police vehicle and the police apparently had surrounded the whole area. They arrested us and we were made to lie down, the three of us and Ashley was not there because we had planned that because the vehicle is not a stolen vehicle, he should run into the bush and later he would claim that he was robbed of his vehicle, so that he was not there when we were arrested.
We were made to lie down and Moses tried to run away as we were lying down, because we had our bags hidden just nearby so that these people should not see that we had firearms and when Moses rose, trying to get to the bags, one white man shot him and he died and that's how we were arrested.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Then did you at the shop where the two people were shot and the son was also shot, did you take anything? Other than shooting them, what else did you do?
MR MHLONGO: We took nothing.
CHAIRPERSON: What sort of firearms did you personally use and what sort of firearm did Moses use?
MR MHLONGO: We had AK47 rifles in our possession and Lebohang had a grenade, an F1 grenade.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you were arrested. What happened after your arrest?
MR MHLONGO: Okay. We were separated, the three of us. I was taken to Warmbaths and Ashley I think was taken to Naboomspruit and Lebohang was taken to Nylstroom. We were detained under Section 29 of 1982 and investigations were conducted for about ten days.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is there any stage that you escaped from prison? At what stage?
MR MHLONGO: May the question please be repeated?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct to say there was a stage that you escaped from prison?
MR MHLONGO: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee about that?
MR MHLONGO: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Why did you run away and how?
MR MHLONGO: I ran away from, I escaped actually from Potgietersrus Police Station. I was in the company of Lebohang. Ashley didn't come along with us because he was sick on that day. We escaped through the roof. We sawed the rafters of the roof and fled. We escaped because we didn't want to be in prison.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, by all what you did, what were you trying to achieve?
MR MHLONGO: Moses Motapo, he resided in the Northern Province and we resided in Alexandra and he told me that we should capture the whole of the Northern Province and put it under APLA so that we could realise our objectives, the objective was to capture the Northern Province.
MR MBANDAZAYO: How were you going to capture by killing the people that you killed?
MR MHLONGO: We were not in a hurry, so we were to do it little by little and at the same time we were trying to organise people, because we also had new recruits in the Northern Province, so we had decided that we'd also try and get hold of arms and ammunition and we wanted to increase the number of our group.
MR MBANDAZAYO: If one says to you that you killed only white people and that you attack was just a racist attack what would you say to that? Or it was a plain robbery, it had nothing to do with politics, what would you say to that?
MR MHLONGO: I would dispute that because even black police people in the area would have been targeted, unfortunately we didn't come across them. We would have carried out similar operations against them and rob them of their firearms, so the whites were one group of people about whom we were sure we were going to get firearms from.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, what do you say to the family? Especially the Bouwer family who is present, the son who survived in the incident, in your last incident, what do you say to him?
MR MHLONGO: To them I'll say that now that I'm here before this Truth and Reconciliation Commission, I'm trying to reconcile with them. I would like for them to forgive me for my deeds. I wish they understand that we did what we did during those days because we were APLA members, but now that I'm here to try and reconcile with them, may they please forgive me?
MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the evidence of the first applicant, Chairperson. Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr van der Heever, would you like to put any questions to the applicant?
MR VAN DER HEEVER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Mhlongo, you've made reference to boers, did you refer to Afrikaans speaking whites or whites in general?
MR MHLONGO: Here I'm referring to white persons because I cannot differentiate between boer and a white person, or should I say a boer and any other white persons.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: This incident took place two months before the 1994 election, is that correct?
MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: The Interim Constitution was already in place, is that correct?
MR MHLONGO: Yes, I would say so.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: And the date of the election was already announced, is that correct?
MR MHLONGO: That is correct.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: You've also made this confession, or this statement to Mr Steenkamp the Magistrate in Tzaneen and you say that - is that statement correct, or is it ...
CHAIRPERSON: We know one aspect that isn't, but besides that aspect relating to the selling of the car parts, is it correct?
MR VAN DER HEEVER: Is it correct? Because Mr Mhlongo, I want to ask you, on page 46 of the document handed to us by the kind lady from the Amnesty Committee, on page 46 and referring to the incident in Roedtan
"We could not get money to take"
CHAIRPERSON: Approximately where is this?
MR VAN DER HEEVER: The middle of page 46.
CHAIRPERSON: If you could just start again.
MR VAN DER HEEVER
"We could not get money to take,"
so you wanted to rob the shop or the cafe, according to this statement.
MR MHLONGO: Yes, the statement about the money by the police, you see here we were being beaten up. When we got into the shop, Moses Motapo did not speak to these people about money or anything, he just opened fire and I followed suit and the aim was not to take money because he didn't say anything to these people about lying down and giving us money.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: My question is simple, Mr Mhlongo. Are these your words? Did you say to Mr Steenkamp the Chief Magistrate of Tzaneen,
"We could not get money to take"?
MR MHLONGO: I would agree and disagree with that. I cannot recall because there are so many Magistrates that I spoke to at the time and I was under interrogation, so that I was not conscious of many things that I was doing at the time.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: I want to refer you to - your co-applicant also made a very lengthy statement and according to his statement on page 77 of the documents handed to us, Mr Chairperson, paragraph 25, you co-applicant said, and I'm going to read to you in Afrikaans
"On the 11th of February we went to Turfloop very early. We went to go and observe the Standard Bank and then to rob it."
So you wanted to go to the Standard Bank at Mankweng, Turfloop, to rob the Standard Bank, according to your co-applicant.
CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to that?
MR MHLONGO: I think he's the one who is better placed to respond to that but what I know is that, it was not within our intention to rob, there were so many things that we had to do. Yes, we needed money.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Mhlongo, did you go to the Standard Bank Turfloop and did you keep the Standard Bank Turfloop under observation?
MR MHLONGO: Yes, we did. Yes, we kept it under observation.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: And I also want to refer you to paragraph 28 of your co-applicant's statement to the police on page 78 Mr Chairperson.
"When we arrived at the shop"
that's the shop at Roedtan,
"we found that it was closed"
and that's - your co-applicant then said to the police:
"I then said that we will try and rob a cafe in Roedtan"
What do you say to that? According to your co-applicant you went to the restaurant in Roedtan, not to - for political purposes, but to rob the restaurant or the cafe, the shop.
MR MHLONGO: There was no robbery committed at Roedtan.
CHAIRPERSON: What Mr van der Heever is asking you is, what he's saying is that your co-applicant in this statement said that you went to Roedtan with the intention of robbing a shop. We know that there was no actual robbery, but you went there with the intention to rob.
MR MHLONGO: We went there because we wanted the money, as I've explained before that we did not have enough money and even the petrol was not enough in the car. We went there because we wanted money, but when we got there, Moses did not tell those people that he was looking for money, he just fired.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: So you went there to get money?
MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: Now ...(intervention)
MR SIBANYONI: He also said because you did not have petrol in the car, was the purpose of robbing money to enable you to get petrol?
MR MHLONGO: Yes, we were looking for money to put fuel in the car.
CHAIRPERSON: These mikes are playing up. Sometimes the one won't come on if the other's on.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Mhlongo, unfortunately we haven't got the full Court record of the trial by the Honourable Justice Botha, but on page 141, page 493 of his Sentence, he said, and maybe I just want to ask your comment otherwise I'm going to request the Honourable Commission to get a full copy of the proceedings of your trial
"In the meantime"
and I'm quoting, page 141 Mr Chairperson, the 7th line from the bottom:
'In the meantime he became disillusioned with the organisation and found himself in a position where he had no work."
Can you perhaps tell the Honourable Commission why the Judge has made this remark that you got disillusioned with the organisation, or is this just a remark by the Honourable Judge?
MR MHLONGO: I do not understand what that means. If you can explain further, because I do not understand what is meant by being disillusioned. Please repeat that phrase.
CHAIRPERSON: Well being disillusioned means that you're no longer happy with it, you're no longer satisfied with it, it's not fulfilling your expectations and I take it the organisation here referred to is the APLA.
MR MHLONGO: Yes. I did mention that but those were personal differences in our structure as APLA, but those differences wouldn't cause me to disrespect APLA, those were only personal differences.
CHAIRPERSON: Personal differences with whom?
MR MHLONGO: As the organisation, within the members of the organisation.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: So you were not happy with the organisation or certain members of the organisation, according to what you've said.
MR MHLONGO: I was satisfied, I didn't have problems, but each and every person has got his own personal view and people would listen to one another, but the conflict in views doesn't necessarily mean that there is a serious conflict in the organisation, but there would be issues or ideas that we wouldn't agree upon, but then that wouldn't necessarily mean that I wouldn't involve myself in the operations as an APLA member.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: Who gave you instructions to go to a shop at Roedtan, or a cafe, restaurant at Roedtan, Mr Mhlongo?
MR MHLONGO: Moses Motapo was the one who issued the instructions because even when we were in exile he had been my Commander since then. Even here inside he remained my Commander so he was actually issuing the instructions.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: ; Mr Mhlongo, the young man you refer to, who fired the shot at the young man seated next to me, who was plus minus 14 years of age on that particular day?
MR MHLONGO: I did, I fired a shot.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: And during the trial have you noticed that he is partially disabled because of that injury he sustained on that day?
MR MHLONGO: During the trial I couldn't see him. Even now I cannot identify him, but I heard from the other person that this person is still alive. Yes, he is crippled but I couldn't identify him then.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Mhlongo, I've already questioned you about the bank at Mankweng, or Turfloop as it's also called. You also went to Lebowakgomo to try and rob.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you please just spell that name for me?
MR VAN DER HEEVER: Lebowakgomo, Mr Chairperson.
MR MHLONGO: Yes, we did go to Lebowakgomo to reconnoitre the place and I have already mentioned that we didn't have enough money, but we did not go there to rob as criminals, but all we needed was the money in order to further the objectives of APLA. It's not that we wanted to go there and rob the bank and get the money that we didn't even know what to do with the money, but we knew that we were going to use the money in our structure.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: But I want to read to you the statement your colleague, your co-applicant has made.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you give a reference please?
MR VAN DER HEEVER: Paragraph 26, page 78 Mr Chairperson. I'm sorry. I'm going to read to you the whole paragraph.
"When we arrived there, I went to the Post Office. Moss, Zweli and Silo waited in the car. In that same complex there was a Standard Bank. When I went back to the vehicle, Moss told me that while they sat there waiting for me, two vehicles arrived and dropped off money at the Standard Bank. He also told me that one day we must come back to rob the bank."
Is that correct? You must come back at a later stage to rob the bank?
MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is true. We did go to Lebowakgomo to reconnoitre the place. We didn't know the place, but Ashley knew the place very well. There was a bank in the complex and some Post Offices and when we got there indeed we saw the Fidelity Guard vehicle with money, but we did not do a thing that day because of the fact that we were not in a good condition, we were not very strong, we were only four and we had only two rifles and those gentlemen were six. We had to go back to Alexandra and try and organise more people so that we can go back to the bank and get the money. I have already mentioned that we were not taking money just for fun, but we wanted to support our operation.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: But on that day, resulting from a question asked by one of the Honourable Members of the Amnesty Committee, you did not - you needed fuel on that particular day, not in future. I want to carry on with that same paragraph.
"We then returned to Gamotapo and on the way back we drove past a shop just outside of Pietersburg on the road between Pietersburg and Lebowakgomo"
and this shop does not refer to the shop in Roedtan, am I correct, Mr Mhlongo? Am I correct?
MR MHLONGO: The shop that we drove past, it's the shop where we killed the people is Roedtan, the Sunshine Cafe, that is the only shop that we got to. I don't know any other shop except for that one.
MR VAN DER HEEVER
"But this time we stopped there and all four of us entered the shop. I bought a Citizen and Moss bought a Sowetan. We walked around. Moss then said that we must return to this shop later that evening and rob it."
MR MHLONGO: As I mentioned initially that this happened some time ago. I'm beginning to remember now. That was not the Roedtan, it is another place, the one that I'm referring to, it's another shop. Yes, it is true that we got in there with Morapapa, but we did not do a thing.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: And I want to read from paragraph 27 as well on the same page, page 78 Mr Chairperson.
"In the other suitcase Moss had the AK47 and hand grenade. The plan was that we are going to rob the shop outside of Pietersburg and then we will drive back to Alexandra."
When you arrived at the shop, from paragraph 28, page 78, that particular shop was closed. Is that correct?
MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: And then you decided to rob the shop of the cafe in Roedtan where the Bouwer family were killed, is that correct?
MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct, because the Roedtan was on our way to Alexandra and we realised that we are running short of fuel, so we decided that if we can get some money in the cafe, we would manage to get petrol and get to our destination.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: Mr Chairperson, may I have a word with Mr Bouwer please?
CHAIRPERSON: Certainly Mr van der Heever.
MR VAN DER HEEVER: Thank you. I've got no further questions. Thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER HEEVER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr van der Heever. Ms Mtanga, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?
MS MTANGA: I have one question Chairperson, thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Mhlongo, it seems to me, based on the statement of your co-applicant, you had many operations planned concerning robbery, if you had obtained this money from this place that you had planned to rob, what would you have done with the money?
MR MHLONGO: I cannot say for sure, but the only person who would know was Motapo because he was the Commander of our unit and he wouldn't do anything, he would report to someone else, the High Commander of APLA. If we managed to get the money from the bank, he knew what was going to be done, but all I know is that we did not have enough firearms and even the accommodation was not what we wanted, so we really needed the money.
MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Do you have any re-examination, Mr Mbandazayo?
MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant?
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson. Why did you return to South Africa? Who told you to come back?
MR MHLONGO: Our leadership told us to come back.
ADV BOSMAN: But who gave you instruction to come back? Who was your Commander then?
MR MHLONGO: This decision was taken by the leadership. There's no specific person who came to me personally to tell me that I should come back to South Africa, but all the APLA members came in large numbers and we were instructed by the leadership that we should come back home.
ADV BOSMAN: What were you instructed to come and do here?
MR MHLONGO: We knew exactly what we were going to do. I knew what was expected of me. I knew that I was supposed to go on with APLA operations. We had different mandates. I am talking about myself as an individual. I know what was expected of me.
ADV BOSMAN: How did you know this?
MR MHLONGO: I knew that from long ago, before we were even told by the Leadership to come back home, I knew that while I was still in the APLA camps, I knew very well what was to happen.
ADV BOSMAN: What was to happen?
MR MHLONGO: I knew that when I come here, I should fight the white people until we are told to stop. I knew very well why I went to the exile. I went there to get training so that I'll be able to be involved in the battle with the whites and I was always waiting for someone to come and fetch me to continue with the APLA operation.
ADV BOSMAN: How did you come back?
MR MHLONGO: I came through repatriation.
ADV BOSMAN: Did you have a firearm with you?
MR MHLONGO: No.
ADV BOSMAN: Where did you obtain the firearm?
MR MHLONGO: Moses Motapo was the one who had ammunition all the weapons that we were using were obtained from him and he was a person who would travel to Zimbabwe, he would get firearms there in Zimbabwe.
ADV BOSMAN: And with whom did you have differences?
MR MHLONGO: I have mentioned that those were the members, we had our political differences.
ADV BOSMAN: Can't you just tell us a little bit more about with whom these political differences were and what these political differences were, what about?
MR MHLONGO: It was due to operations that were supposed to be undertaken. I was with Matshipape who was residing at Vosloorus. He was a President and we went to stay in Vosloorus and we did not want to operate there. That was a problem because Matshipape was expecting us to operate in the East Rand and we did not want that. That was the source of our differences and that is the cause, that is the reason that led to Morapapa wanting us to leave for the Northern Province.
ADV BOSMAN: If you were prepared to operate in the Northern Province, why were you not prepared to operate on the East Rand?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, if I may chip in. I know it will be difficult to the applicant, Chairperson, because this was a highly volatile situation within PAC. If I may throw some light, there was a time when there was a group called Wise Doges which was opposed to the leadership of Makwetu, so Chairperson, that's the reason why the applicant seems to be reluctant because it was something which was - so there was some sort of division so in a way APLA found itself in the cross-fire where they have to take sides, you know, if they go to this side they will be taken as siding, so Chairperson, I would like the Committee not to dwell much on that. So that's the reason the applicant seems to be reluctant, because it was something which involved the High Office of PAC.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think you know he said that there were problems, he can answer that question, I don't think it's an unfair question.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I'm not saying it's unfair, but looking at it, he has already indicated that Mrs Tshipapo was the Women’s League of the PAC, so she wanted them to operate there, so the reason why I'm bringing ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Just to give us the background.
MR MBANDAZAYO: I know where it goes now because he seems to be reluctant because he knows that he will be digging something which has already been forgotten, so there was indeed conflict within PAC regarding that, so it affected APLA in terms of operations because they were taken by some that you can't operated in this because you belong to that group, so that was the problem. So that's why I'm requesting the Committee at least to be cautious when it is dealing with that aspect regarding the applicant.
ADV BOSMAN: Just one other aspect. You were given R700 I understood, just correct me if I'm wrong. You were given R700 to come back to the Northern Province, is that right?
MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.
ADV BOSMAN: And then you ran out of fuel. What happened to the R700?
MR MHLONGO: As I have mentioned that the person who was in charge of the finance was Moses Motapo. We managed to leave Alexandra using public transport because the car was still in Pietersburg at the time and when we left Alexandra it was myself and Moses Motapo. Ashley and Lebohang were already in Pietersburg. Myself and Moses Motapo used public transport to get to Pietersburg. We used the money because if you have to move from Alexandra to Pietersburg, it's quite a distance, that is how we spent the money and Moses had the money.
ADV BOSMAN: Are you telling us that you spent the whole R700 to get from Jo'burg to Pietersburg, two people?
MR MHLONGO: No, I am not implying that we spent all the money, but yes we did use the money and even used the money when we got to Pietersburg, the four of us, because we would go and reconnoitre places, we were not stationed at one place, so R700 is not much.
ADV BOSMAN: Now there's something else that confuses me a bit. You kept on reconnoitring places and it would seem they were mostly banks, and yet you said that you were instructed by Moses to target the boers. Could you perhaps explain that, or I did I misunderstand you?
MR MHLONGO: That doesn't meant that we were only checking with the banks, we managed to go to Ebenezer Dam, but our main aim was to get the money and reduce the strength of the white people in the Northern Province. Our target was not the bank only, but we also aimed at reducing the strength of the white people, that is why we managed to go to Ebenezer and take the white man and kill him and go to Roedtan and kill people there. So we did not have only one aim.
ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions you'd like to put?
MR SIBANYONI: Yes, Mr Chairperson, a follow-up to the question by Adv Bosman. If I understand you correctly, you had two aims or two purposes, to get money, number one and secondly to kill white people. Did I understand you correctly?
MR MHLONGO: Yes, that's what I'm saying.
MR SIBANYONI: And with regard to the R700, my understanding is that that money was utilised during your travels, all of it, nothing was left, did I also understand you correctly there?
MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct.
MR SIBANYONI: If you were robbing money for the PAC, why was it not handed over to the coffers of the PAC, or of APLA?
MR MHLONGO: We couldn't take R700 to the coffers. R700 is a very small amount, it's the one that we were supposed to use because we were staying at Morapapa's place and no one was employed there. We had to buy food, fuel and travel. R700 was not much to be handed over to the organisation. Even if we managed to get a large amount of money at the bank, we wouldn't take it to the organisation. The only person who was responsible for the money was the one who was going to take the money to the organisation.
MR SIBANYONI: And that was Moses? Who was supposed to take the money to the organisation?
MR MHLONGO: Yes, that is correct, because he was our Commander. I didn't have any powers to take the money to the High Command.
MR SIBANYONI: Was Moses accountable to any person you knew or any structure you knew, or was he totally using his discretion?
MR MHLONGO: No, he was not taking initiative, he was somebody else's subordinate, Letlapa Mphahlele was his High Command and even the firearms, he would go to Zimbabwe and come with ammunition and firearms, he is the person who was in contact with Letlapa Mphahlele most of the times.
MR SIBANYONI: You said you only had two firearms, two AK47, to whom were they allocated?
MR MHLONGO: They were given to Moses Motapo.
MR SIBANYONI: So all four of you were supposed to be using only two firearms?
MR MHLONGO: No. I mentioned before that when we came to South Africa, we came through repatriation and we couldn't have firearms. Moses Motapo came illegally and he didn't fly from the exile to here, that's why he managed to bring in firearms and he would go and get them from Zimbabwe. The four of us had only two rifles and it was not necessary for us to own rifles, the four of us. There was a person who was driving the car for us, Ashley, so it was not necessary for him to carry a firearm. Myself and Moses Motapo had firearms and Lebohang was using a grenade and he would be with Ashley guarding the place with Ashley in the car. The people who would go out for operation was only myself and Moses.
MR SIBANYONI: I understood that the reason that you people decided to rob the shop at Roedtan was to get petrol. Now after attacking and shooting these people there, were you not surprised, or let me say, why didn't you look for money?
MR MHLONGO: When Morapapa got in and fired, the lights in the shop switched off and I don't know the reason. There were servants who were working there, three of them, three women who were working there, but we did not do anything to them. After firing the shots, the lights switched off and we didn't go look for money, we decided to get out of the shop.
MR SIBANYONI: No further questions, Mr Chairperson. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: When you went to Ebenezer Dam and captured Mr Pypers, was it your intention to rob him as well?
MR MHLONGO: The intention is that we were looking for a firearm from Mr Pypers but when we did not get the firearm, we decided not to leave him alive, we decided to take him along to kill him.
CHAIRPERSON: Why?
MR MHLONGO: Those were our intentions, to kill the whites, it was nothing uncommon. We knew that our duty was to kill the whites.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you serious that it was your intention to overtake the whole of the Northern Province, the four of you?
MR MHLONGO: Yes, I am serious because I know very well that bit by bit our number would increase as I have said that we were busy organising the other comrades under the PAC banner, trying to show them the way, trying to explain our objectives to them. We had support and I knew that the number would go up and we would end up overpowering them in the Northern Province.
CHAIRPERSON: Now you, from what I've heard, appeared to be acquainted with the policies of PAC and APLA at that time.
MR MHLONGO: Yes, at the time I knew what I was fighting for, I was not just fighting but I knew very well where I'm supposed to get to.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and we've heard that Moses bought the Sowetan newspaper, so he read newspapers as well.
MR MHLONGO: Yes, we would read newspapers.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now the APLA called off the armed struggle on 16th of January 1994 and it was big news. A formal cessation of the armed struggle on the 16th of January. You were living in Alexandra at the time. You were reading newspapers, you were fully acquainted with the activities of APLA and PAC, why did you continue to operate after the cessation of the struggle by APLA?
MR MHLONGO: As I have mentioned initially that some of the things that led to political differences were among those and we were coming from the exile and we had suffered a lot there and we were trained and we were told of what to do when we come to South Africa and we knew very well in our minds that when we come to South Africa, we are supposed to fight the white people and we were not satisfied by that suspension of the arms struggle, that is why we left East Rand, because we didn't want anyone to disturb us, to tell us that we should put down arms, that is why we decided to come to Northern Province to continue with our operations and we were not the only unit who was against this idea of suspending the arms struggle.
CHAIRPERSON: So when you committed these offences against the Pypers and the Bouwer family, you were then not acting on behalf of APLA and in the furtherance of its objectives.
MR MHLONGO: We were doing it for APLA because Moses would report to Letlapa Mphahlele and Letlapa Mphahlele was an APLA member and PAC member at the same time. They were also the people who were supporting us, that is why he was in a position to give Morapapa firearms to continue with our operations.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you not find it unusual that you in your operations were using a car that could be traced to one of your members, in other words a legal car, a car that was registered in one of your member's names?
MR MHLONGO: No, we did not see that as a problem because when this car - when the car failed to start, leaving it there we had a plan and we told the owner of the car as to what to do in order for him to get his car. We did not have a problem using a legal car.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the Panel?
MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Heever, any questions arising out of questions that have been put?
MR VAN DER HEEVER: None, Mr Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER HEEVER
CHAIRPERSON: I'll say that's none, because you couldn't get your button on. Ms Mtanga, any questions arising?
MS MTANGA: No questions, Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlongo, thank you, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down now.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I'm calling the second applicant to the witness stand.
