CHAIRPERSON: I would like to place on record our gratitude to the members of what used to be known as the Prisons Department, Correctional Services, for having brought the prisoners here so early this morning. The fact that we are starting late has nothing to do with them and we thank them for the effort they made.
We are now proceeding with the application of Sithembiso Vanana. The Committee remains the same, that is Judges Wilson, Miller and Motata. Would the representatives of the parties please put themselves on record?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo. I'm representing the applicant in this matter. Thank you.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Thank you Mr Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members. I'm Andries van Niekerk from Dordrecht and I represent my client, Mr Richard Rossouw and the Rossouw family. Thank you.
MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair. My name is Thabile Thabethe. I'm the Evidence Leader for the TRC. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Right. We now commence with leading of evidence.
MR MBANDAZAYO: May the applicant be sworn in, Mr Chairperson? Thank you.
JUDGE MOTATA: May I ask in which language will he testify?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Xhosa, Chairperson.
SITHEMBISO DAVID VANANA: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Vanana, is it correct that you were born on the 7th of January 1977 in Dordrecht?
MR VANANA: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And is it also correct that your grew up in the area of Dordrecht?
MR VANANA: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee to which standard - which standard did you pass at school?
MR VANANA: Standard Five.
MR MBANDAZAYO: In which year?
MR VANANA: In 1991.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, in which year did you join the PAC?
MR VANANA: I joined PAC in 1992.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Of which component structure were you a member? Were you a member of PAC or Student Wing, or Youth Wing or Women's Wing of Peace?
MR VANANA: I was a member of Azanu.
MR MBANDAZAYO: I take it that you know Dordrecht very well, am I correct?
MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee about the incident in which you are applying for amnesty? How did it come about that you attacked the said farm?
MR VANANA
"In 1993 after joining the PAC, I was with comrades in this mission Simphiwe Manshe, Nelson Gebe. As a PAC member I decided to take training in order to fight for my country. I asked Mr Gebe to explain to me if it's possible for me to join APLA, or how long is that going to take. Mr Gebe told me that it's easy to join APLA, but because of the fact that we were in Dordrecht and the person who was to take me to the training was in Butterworth, we had to raise funds in order for us to manage a trip to Butterworth. I told Mr Gebe about the farm that I grew up in and the farmer that I knew and it's the very same farm conditions that forced me to join the PAC and I knew that we would be able to get money there, so that I can fulfil my wish to join the training of APLA.
Mr Gebe asked me whether I would be able to take him to that particular farm to see how the farm was situated and I agreed. Indeed, I took him to the farm and I told him everything about the farm. We went back to the township. The following week, on a Saturday, we left early in the morning. I remained on the farm. They were in the township, but we had already discussed about the Saturday's plan as to how we were going to execute the mission.
I asked for permission from my parents to leave the house. They agreed and they knew that I was going to meet with the other comrades on the way.
I met with them and I told them that there was no problem that would prevent us from continuing with the mission because the very same people they knew on the farm, two of them were still there, because Mr Gebe wanted to know if there wasn't any third person who arrived later on the farm. I told him that there were only two people.
We went back to the farm at about past Six, between Six and Eight. We approached the farm as we were trying to make sure that the deceased is out of the house. We made some noise, but he just switched on the light. He didn't leave the house. Mr Gebe said that the person on the farm might phone his sons at the police and then he wanted to know where the telephone lines were. I told him where the telephone lines were and I even told him where to get the instrument that we could use to disconnect the telephone lines. We did that. We disconnected the telephone line. We waited next to the garage until early in the morning.
When he was leaving the house, Mr Rossouw that is, Mr Gebe told us to go to him, suggested that we go to him and we were told to torture him and inquire about money and the firearms. We did that. We went to Mr Rossouw. We asked him. Mr Rossouw answered by saying he didn't have money and he was trying to remove something that was on the other comrade's face, like a t-shirt. When he tried to remove that t-shirt from the comrade's face, I pulled him towards his house. Mr Gebe told us that he was going to use the entrance in the kitchen. I pulled Mr Rossouw towards the doorway. I asked him where the money was, or the firearms. He said he didn't have any of those.
We started torturing him, stabbing him. He fell down. We heard a sound. After that sound we saw Mr Gebe coming from behind us, telling us to take him inside the house so as to prevent the farm workers to see him."
CHAIRPERSON: What was the sound you heard?
MR VANANA: It was a firearm. It sounded like a firearm.
"After that sound, Mr Gebe told us to call him into the house so as to get the chance to search the house. My mother came as I was in the other bedroom, I saw her, my mother. I went to tell Mr Gebe because next to me there was Simphiwe Manshe, but I decided to tell Mr Gebe that my mother was coming. Mr Gebe said I must not worry, he was going to go and talk to her. He did that and he came back again. He asked if we haven't found anything yet. There was nothing at hand at the moment. We told him that there was nothing.
Mr Gebe suggested that we leave in his car and leave and go to the Transkei."
...(intervention)
JUDGE MOTATA: Just before that, you were asked by the Chairperson about what sound did you hear, you said the sound of a gun shot. Was Mr Rossouw shot?
MR VANANA: It was not Mr Rossouw, but it was his wife who was shot.
JUDGE MOTATA: Where was his wife then, from where you heard the gun shot?
MR VANANA: She was in the kitchen.
JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo, you may proceed.
MR VANANA
"We took his car because Mr Gebe had told me that the person who would take us to the training was in Butterworth. He told us that the name of the person was Mzwake, I cannot remember his surname. We left for the Transkei in Butterworth, but he was not there when we got there. We found a lady who told us that Mzwake wasn't there and we went to Idutwa and stayed over there for the night and Mr Gebe would go to Butterworth from time to time, but he would come back with nothing.
We stayed there in Idutwa. We didn't have money. We had to sell Mr Rossouw's car. Because of the fact that we couldn't find Mzwake, we ended up without money. Mr Gebe suggested that we go back to Queenstown. Even there we didn't have money.
Mr Gebe decided that we go to a certain bottle store that he knew. The bottle store was owned by a white man. He suggested that we go and rob that bottle store, so as to get the money to go to Queenstown. We were staying in a certain comrade's house by the name of Sanele. He was also involved during this robbery.
On our way, we did rob the bottle store. We got the money and the car. The car that we used was chased by police and the comrades left the car. Comrade Sanele and myself, we left the car and ran away. Mr Gebe decided to run away with the same car. Comrade Sanele was shot on the head and he died there. I ran away and I escaped the shooting. I got to Idutwa in the morning and I found Mr Gebe there and I explained to him what had happened. Mr Gebe advised me not to tell Sanele's wife of what happened because I was not even sure whether Sanele was really dead after the shooting.
Later on Sanele's wife heard that Comrade Sanele had passed away. She told us that and we had to run away because we thought that she would go to the police and we would be in trouble, we would be arrested. We went to Idutwa and we pointed at a car with two white women. We used that car to Butterworth.
On our way to Butterworth, a bakkie appeared and they tried to stop us but we couldn't stop. They started firing and there was another Corolla shooting and I tried getting out of the vehicle and I was shot at and I was taken to the hospital in Butterworth and I was later transferred to Umtata. I escaped from Umtata hospital and I went to Cape Town because as I was getting out of the hospital, I did not know where to look for Mr Gebe and Simphiwe because I didn't know the place that much, Transkei that is. I went back to Cape Town. I went to stay with my sister there who was staying in Kraaifontein, but because of the fact that I knew so much about the objectives of the organisation, I decided to carry on with what I did, with what I had started, incidents like Mr Rossouw's farm house and I decided to go on and try and get money and I told myself that it will be easier for me to go to Mr Sanele's house and I wanted to try again to find Mr Mzwake so as to get training.
I shot Mr van Niekerk on his farm in Klapmuts. The people who were with me on the mission, people who were working on that farm, they were not aware of my intentions. I did not get the money because after shooting Mr van Niekerk, the farm workers came to the scene immediately. I couldn't get inside the house and get the money, I just took his firearm and his car. I ran away with the car. I went to Kraaifontein. I tried to get a buyer for the car in Kraaifontein, but my comrades suggested that I take the car and sell it in Khayelitsha. As I was still trying to get a buyer in Khayelitsha the police came and I was chased and I ran away. The people who were with me in the car who had suggested that I see the car in Khayelitsha, got arrested. I also escaped there.
I went back to Kraaifontein. I decided upon going to a shop in Moddersvlei that was next to the station and as I was still there, a patrolling van came and I got arrested."
CHAIRPERSON: What were you doing in that shop?
MR VANANA: I went there to rob the money because my intention was to go back to the Transkei, to get hold of Mr Mzwake and get the training.
CHAIRPERSON: So you were looking for this money all the time, so you could use it to get yourself trained? That's what you've told us.
MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: That is for your personal advantage. You wanted the training.
MR VANANA: Yes, I wanted to get training, that's why I attacked Mr van Niekerk because I wanted to get money and go to Butterworth and get hold of Mr Mzwake who was going to take me for training.
JUDGE MILLER: What made you think that you would be able to find Mr Mzwake, because you'd been trying with Mr Gebe for a long time to get hold of Mzwake in Butterworth without success. Why did you insist on going back to Butterworth to find somebody you couldn't trace?
MR VANANA: I knew for a fact that he would be found in that house where we were once accommodated in Butterworth. I had told myself that I was certain that the people would tell me about his whereabouts.
CHAIRPERSON: But you've told us that you went there time and again looking for him and you couldn't find him.
MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.
JUDGE MILLER: Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: As you indicated that you were arrested in Cape Town, then were you taken back to Dordrecht? What happened after your arrest in Cape Town?
MR VANANA: After I was arrested in Cape Town, it became apparent that there was no person who was going to stand up for me like my parents, though I knew very well that I was not doing this for my parents. I decided to reveal the name of one comrade who was present so that he would come there and advise me as to what to do and what was going to be done by the organisation. I mentioned his name and he was arrested. Also when he came, he told me that. The very first question that he asked was my membership card. I told him that my membership card got lost in Transkei during the shooting and then he told me that he was not in a position to go there and stand for me to the other members of the organisation, but he promised that he would go and ask if the organisation would do anything, though there was no hope at all because I did not have the membership card with me.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you not refer him to Dordrecht, to your Chairman, Dordrecht? I take it that you had a structure in Dordrecht, as you were a member?
MR VANANA: Yes, we had a structure, but Mr Kalet was no longer in Dordrecht at the time.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Were there no other members of PAC of the Executive in Dordrecht who can verify that you were a member of PAC?
MR VANANA: There were members like Gunumsa Simphiwe Manshe, but he told me that he was not sure that the organisation would take the responsibility because what I did, for instance stealing the car, I did not bring the car to the organisation after stealing the car.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now what you are saying, you're telling the Committee that the bakkie that you robbed from Mr Rossouw's farm, you only take it that the only thing that you took away at Mr Rossouw's farm at Dordrecht was the motor vehicle.
MR VANANA: That is correct.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And the motor vehicle that you took away from Mr Rossouw's farm, you did not hand it over to PAC.
MR VANANA: No, we couldn't take it to the organisation because that was the car that we used to go to Transkei.
MR MBANDAZAYO: The motor vehicle, you used it for your own personal benefits.
MR VANANA: We used it for our personal benefits. We sold the car because we wanted to have some money to buy food and accommodation.
MR MBANDAZAYO: The last point, am I correct to say that time when you committed this robbery at Mr Rossouw's farm, you were not a member of APLA. You were still having some - you wanted to join APLA.
MR VANANA: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Was this Mr Gebe a member of APLA or was he just a member of PAC?
MR VANANA: He told me that he was the APLA member.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Where was he from? Was he not from Dordrecht?
MR VANANA: He was from Transkei. He went to Mr Simphiwe's house.
MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all, Mr Chairperson, that's all the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Mbandazayo, before Mr van Niekerk's given an opportunity, the applicant, he is applying for the incident that took place at the Rossouw's farm in the Dordrecht area. Is he applying for the van Niekerk shooting at Klapmuts and the robbery of bottle stores and attempted robbery of shops? I don't see anything like that.
MR MBANDAZAYO: No, Mr Chairperson.
JUDGE MILLER: So it's just the one incident?
MR MBANDAZAYO: In fact also myself, I was also surprised during the evidence. I didn't know about ...
JUDGE MILLER: The full story.
MR MBANDAZAYO: The full story. Mr van Niekerk at Klipfontein.
JUDGE MILLER: Yes.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Some are new for me.
JUDGE MILLER: So we're only concerned now with ...
MR MBANDAZAYO: I'm concerned with Mr Rossouw because that's the only incident that he applied for amnesty for.
JUDGE MILLER: Thank you. Yes. Yes, Mr van Niekerk.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Thank you very much.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, can you tell the Committee where you grew up?
MR VANANA: I was born on Mr Rossouw's farm and I grew up there, started my early years at school up until 1990 when I was doing standard five.
MR VAN NIEKERK: I see. Am I right if I say that you visited the farm over weekends when you were not in school?
MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.
MR VAN NIEKERK: And am I further right if I say Sir, that your parents at that stage were also staying on that farm?
MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Am I further right if I say, Sir, that you parents stayed there for plus minus twenty-one years on that farm?
MR VANANA: That is correct.
MR VAN NIEKERK: So you knew this farm very well Sir, is that right?
MR VANANA: Yes, Sir.
MR VAN NIEKERK: So I can take it from that, that was the reason why you attacked this farm, because you knew it well?
MR VANANA: That is correct.
MR VAN NIEKERK: So can you just tell us that you've just testified about another murder in Cape Town, attempted hijacking and another robbery charge. Why didn't you apply for amnesty in those cases, Sir?
MR VANANA: According to the knowledge that I got when I was busy applying for amnesty, I heard that one should only apply for offences taken place from 1984 up until 1993, I cannot include anything that took place in 1994 or 95.
JUDGE MILLER: Yes, the cut off date in fact was the 10th of May 1994 for commission of offences, so we don't know the dates, because he's mentioning now 1995 and 1994.
MR VAN NIEKERK: I'll get to that Honourable Member. Sir, if I listen to you, you sounded like a very political person, is that right?
MR VANANA: I can agree with you when you say I am a political person because it is because of Mr Rossouw's treatment that led me to realise the oppression that the people were talking about.
MR VAN NIEKERK: So Sir can you just elaborate on that? What did Mr Rossouw exactly do to you then?
MR VANANA: Mr Rossouw first of all was a racist and an oppressor. Those were the reasons that led me to join the PAC organisation, because this organisation was fighting directly with the whites.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, can you just clarify for me, were you, at the time of this incident, were you a member of the PAC or were you attempting to join the PAC?
MR VANANA: I was already a PAC member because I had the PAC membership card during this incident.
JUDGE MILLER: Sorry. At that stage you were sixteen years of age, is that right?
MR VANANA: That is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you a full member of the PAC at the age of sixteen?
MR VANANA: Yes, I had a membership card at the time.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Now Sir were you shy about being associated with the PAC, Sir?
INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please repeat the question?
MR VAN NIEKERK: Well, it's basically the same. Were you shy about being associated with the PAC, or were you proud of being a member of the PAC?
MR VANANA: I was very proud of being a PAC member because that was an eye opener for me and I was determined to fight for my country, more especially after acquiring the training of APLA.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Now Sir, can you then just explain to us that while you were busy with the trial in Grahamstown, on this incident, why didn't you mention then that you were a member of the PAC and that this was a political murder?
MR VANANA: The reason for me not to reveal that information, it was because at the time, it came to my mind that if I do that, the sentence would be heavy because the Government of the day was white.
JUDGE MILLER: But at your trial, that was during 1995 and there was a new government then and in fact I see that the Judge who tried your case was a Judge who was appointed by the new government, not the old government.
MR VANANA: The Judge did not tell me that he was appointed by the new government, that is why I was not aware of that fact.
CHAIRPERSON: But you knew there was a new government in power?
MR VANANA: Yes, I knew.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR VAN NIEKERK: So am I right that your version at the said trial was that you did this action because you were under duress, Sir, is that right?
MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.
MR VAN NIEKERK: So why did you lie to the Court there, Sir?
MR VANANA: It is because I was trying to save my skin. I wanted to be released.
MR VAN NIEKERK: So isn't that what you are doing today Sir? You are just trying to save yourself again.
MR VANANA: No, that is not true. I made this application with the aim of making sure that Mr Rossouw knows very well what led to those circumstances that happened on his farm.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, I'm going to go a little bit further, am I right that you also made a statement to the police on that incident?
MR VANANA: Yes, there was a statement that I made to the police.
MR VAN NIEKERK: And am I right Sir, that the Court accepted the statement that you made to the police as evidence at that trial?
MR VANANA: I can say so.
MR VAN NIEKERK: And am I right Sir, that in that statement that you made to the police, and I'm referring to page 33 of the documents that were sent to us, that you said the reason why the Rossouw's were to be killed was that the accused was known to them and the killing would result in his or his ...(indistinct) identities being concealed? Isn't that the real reason Sir why you committed this offence?
MR VANANA: No, that is not true Sir.
MR VAN NIEKERK: So isn't it also a strange coincidence that at the time when this incident was committed, that you were under the authority of your father on a pending case against you, Sir, is that right?
INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please repeat the question?
JUDGE MILLER: Mr Rossouw, the interpreter has requested for you to repeat the question please - sorry, Mr van Niekerk.
MR VAN NIEKERK: The last question?
JUDGE MILLER: Yes, if you could just repeat the last question please?
MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir am I right that at the stage when this incident took place, Sir, that there was a pending case against you at Dordrecht?
MR VANANA: That is correct.
MR VAN NIEKERK: So am I right that at that time it was case number 359/93 and that accused number one, was yourself and that Simphiwe Manshe was accused number two Sir?
MR VANANA: Please repeat the question.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Am I right Sir that you were accused number one and Simphiwe Manshe was accused number two in that case Sir, that was pending against you at the time when this incident took place, Sir?
MR VANANA: Simphiwe was not present at that case.
MR VAN NIEKERK: I see. Now Sir, I will refresh your memory. Maybe you cannot remember this but the case number was 359 of 93 and the charges were housebreaking with intention to commit theft, whereby a vehicle was strangely enough also involved on the same farm, Sarelsdal, Sir. Can you explain that Sir?
JUDGE MILLER: The same farm as the Rossouw's farm?
MR VAN NIEKERK: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
JUDGE MILLER: So it was a housebreaking charge and what else? Car theft? Or what do you say about a car?
MR VAN NIEKERK: Honourable Member, I can just say that a car was involved but the charge as I got it was formulated as housebreaking and theft and it should actually have been motor vehicle theft. Isn't that a strange coincidence, Sir?
JUDGE MILLER: In that case of the car theft and arrest, I was arrested because I was suspected, I was never involved. I was at school at the time when the car was stolen.
MR VAN NIEKERK: And Sir, am I right that you did not stand this trial but that you absconded from the Court hearing to commit this incident and subsequently you left to go to the Transkei, is that right?
MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct. I didn't go to Court because on that week, it was when this incident was taking place.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, isn't it a strange coincidence that the two of yourselves were again implicated as possible suspects in that case, Sir?
MR VANANA: You are mistaken Sir. I do not remember Simphiwe Manshe saying anything about the car theft. I'm the one who was arrested. He was never even accused in that case.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, I'll take you a little bit further now. I want to just to briefly go on the case that was there in Klapmuts in Cape Town. Can you still maybe remember what was the exact date when that incident took place, Sir?
MR VANANA: No, Sir, I cannot remember, but I think it was round about April, but I cannot be certain about that.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Maybe I can just refresh your memory Sir. It happened on the 17th of March 1994 and you were arrested a month later on the 17th of the Fourth month 1994, is that more or less right, Sir?
MR VANANA: I cannot dispute that, but I cannot be so sure about the date and the month.
MR VAN NIEKERK: I see. But Sir, if I put it to you that it was the 17th of March 1994, will you be able to say why you didn't apply for amnesty in that case?
MR VANANA: As I have already explained before that about the date, I only remember that it took place in April. I am not sure about March. If it had taken place in March and it was still clear in my memory, I am certain that I could have applied for amnesty.
JUDGE MILLER: Well Mr van Niekerk is telling you that it did take place in March.
MR VANANA: Yes, but my problem now is I was not aware of the month. I did not know the month.
JUDGE MILLER: I don't understand what you're saying. What do you mean you didn't know the month, you mean at the time that you committed it, you didn't know that it was March or April?
MR VANANA: Yes.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, if I can take it a little bit further that if this incident happened in March, then it means that attempted robbery or hijacking or another robbery case, happened between the 1st of August and the month of March. Why didn't you apply for amnesty in those two cases? Are you going to answer that question?
MR VANANA: Yes, I am going to respond to that. It is because of the fact that in my mind, I thought this incident took place in April. I am getting this for the very first time that it took place in March.
JUDGE MILLER: What Mr van Niekerk is saying is, he says that the murder of Mr van Niekerk down in Klapmuts in the Cape was on the 17th of March, but from what you said to us today, the hijacking of that vehicle in which two women were in and the robbery, attempted robbery of the bottle store in Idutwa, that must have happened before March. Why didn't you apply for amnesty in respect of those incidents that you've described?
MR VANANA: Are you talking about the incidents that took place in the Transkei?
JUDGE MILLER: Yes. That's what he's asking about, the incidents that took place in Transkei. Mr van Niekerk's asking you why didn't you apply for amnesty in respect of those incidents, that's the question he's put to you.
MR VANANA: I thought that they would be included on this application because they took place after the Rossouw's incident. I thought that they would be automatically included. The one that I did not mention was Mr van Niekerk's incident.
CHAIRPERSON: You made no mention of any other offences on your application form, did you?
MR VANANA: No, but if I'm not mistaken, I made mention of the Transkei incident. Perhaps I'm mistaken. I thought that they were included.
CHAIRPERSON: A letter was written to you asking for further details, page 6, on the 31st of August 1999.
MR VANANA: Mr Hlangana brought this correspondence to me. Mr Hlangana told me that all the incidents that took place after Mr Rossouw's incident, I was supposed to mention that in my statement and their addresses, but I decided that it would be a futile exercise for me to mention the incident without having their physical addresses.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that all the explanation your want to give? That it would be a futile exercise for you to mention them because you didn't have their addresses, but you're asking us to believe that you thought that they were included in in your amnesty application, is that so?
MR VANANA: Apart that all of them would be automatically included, or they are included.
JUDGE MILLER: Mr van Niekerk.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Thank you. Sir, just a last question on that incident at Klapmuts. Is it right that at that said trial, Sir, that you put the blame on a certain Patrick Makinana, that he was the person that did the shooting, Sir? Is that right, Sir?
MR VANANA: No, that is not true.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Did you then plead guilty Sir, to the charge there that day, if you say you didn't put the blame on Patrick Makinana?
MR VANANA: I pleaded guilty to the shooting, but I explained that it was self-defence on my side against Mr van Niekerk.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, am I further right that your three companions, Patrick Makinana, Sandile Jekwo and Leyana Fanya testified against you at the said trial in Cape Town, is that right Sir?
MR VANANA: That is correct, Sir.
MR VAN NIEKERK: And that all three of them testified that you were the person that shot the said Mr van Niekerk through the window, while he was sitting in the vehicle, you shot him a second time while he was sitting behind the steering wheel. You shot him for a second time while he was lying on the ground, is that right Sir?
MR VANANA: That is correct, Sir.
MR VAN NIEKERK: So am I right that at that stage the reason why you were on the farm of Mr van Niekerk, was the fact that all of you were working on that farm that day, Sir, is that right?
MR VANANA: That is correct, Sir.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Now Sir, just on your evidence, why didn't you use that money to go back to the Transkei to join the APLA force? Why did you have to kill somebody and take his vehicle?
MR VANANA: The money that we got there was not enough to take me to the Transkei because we were getting only R20 per day.
JUDGE MOTATA: Did you ask for assistance from the PAC to send you out to the Transkei to receive training because you were a card carrying member?
MR VANANA: No in Kraaifontein I did not know any person belonging to the organisation who would help me.
JUDGE MOTATA: Where did you obtain the card to be a member of the PAC?
MR VANANA: In the Dordrecht.
JUDGE MOTATA: Were there offices of the PAC at Dordrecht?
MR VANANA: Yes.
JUDGE MOTATA: Why didn't you approach those offices there where you obtained your card as a member?
MR VANANA: It is because at the time I was in Cape Town, they were in Dordrecht, there was no way for me to get there.
JUDGE MOTATA: You may proceed, Mr van Niekerk, thank you.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Thank you Sir. Sir, can you just explain that, in your application and I'm referring to page three paragraph 11(b), you'll see that it was Mr Simphiwe who gave you the order to go to the farm of Rossouw and to attack him. Is that right Sir?
MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Can you then explain that why only on page seven did you make mention that
"Nelson Gebe instructed us to attack the said farm"
Sir?
MR VANANA: The reason for me to include Simphiwe there, it was my mistake. I did not know Mr Gebe's real name up until such time that Mr Manshe explained to me further about Mr Gebe.
MR VAN NIEKERK: I see. Now Sir, so what you are telling me now that what you wrote down on page three, that that is wrong Sir, that that is a lie. Is that right Sir?
MR VANANA: It was just a mistake about a person who commanded me to commit the act.
JUDGE MILLER: Sorry Mr van Niekerk. What did you know Mr Gebe as?
MR VANANA: I knew him as an APLA guerilla.
JUDGE MILLER: No, but you said you learned later from Manshe, Nelson Gebe's real name. Until you learned that from Manshe, what did you know Mr Gebe as? What did you think his name was?
MR VANANA: We were referring to him as Monwai.
JUDGE MILLER: Just repeat that.
MR VANANA: Monwai.
JUDGE MILLER: Mr van Niekerk.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Thank you Sir. So if you said that you made a mistake on page three here, then I would like to ask you that on page four, I've got a translation of a Xhosa that was written, I presume it was written by yourself, you also said there and I'm quoting from paragraph two. You said
"Mr S. Manshe had told me to take both money and guns so that we'll be accepted in the training."
And then the first paragraph you said:
"Mr S Manshe commanded me to go and attack Mr C.G. Rossouw's farm."
Is that also a mistake Sir?
MR VANANA: That was a mistake because even at the time, I did not know Mr Gebe's name.
JUDGE MILLER: But now why didn't you refer to him as Monwai, if you didn't know his name? You knew him to be Monwai. Why didn't you say Monwai gave us the instruction?
MR VANANA: I thought that since I didn't know the surname it would look more like a fabricated story. I decided to use Simphiwe Manshe so that if he is apprehended, he would just mention the fact that it was not Monwai, but it was Mr Gebe.
JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr van Niekerk. Just to ask, I've just seen it here before I forget, on page three paragraph 10(d) you say I robbed money and firearms and I destroyed car for them. What car did you destroy?
MR VANANA: I made a mistake by saying that I destroyed the car.
JUDGE MILLER: Is that the car that you sold in Butterworth or Idutwa?
MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.
JUDGE MILLER: Mr van Niekerk.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Thank you. Just on that point Sir, now how much money did you get for the said vehicle?
MR VANANA: We sold it for R5 000.
MR VAN NIEKERK: So this R5 000 was not enough for you to join APLA, is that right?
MR VANANA: It was enough because I was already there in the Transkei, but the only problem was the fact that I couldn't get hold of Mr Mzwake.
JUDGE MILLER: At that stage, there were many members of PAC in Transkei in particular. Why was it only Mr Mzwake that you had to see? Couldn't you get hold of some PAC member or APLA member in Transkei at that stage and say: "Look" you know, "here I am, young and able-bodied, wanting to be trained, I want to join your organisation." Why didn't you look elsewhere to get the training that you so desperately sought?
MR VANANA: Mr Gebe was the person who had in-depth knowledge about the people in Transkei who were in a position to take me to the training. He had only told me about Mr Mzwake, he never mentioned the fact that there was somebody else, because I am certain if that was mentioned to me, we could have opted for that particular ...(indistinct - talking simultaneously)
JUDGE MILLER: Because at that stage the PAC and indeed APLA weren't even underground, particularly in Transkei, they were open organisations.
MR VANANA: That is correct, Sir, but because of the fact that I did not know Comrades from the Transkei who would help me, take me for training, it was only Mr Gebe that was known to me.
JUDGE MILLER: Didn't you refer to this person who got shot in the head, what was his name, Solane, as being a comrade?
MR VANANA: To whom?
JUDGE MILLER: The person who got shot in the head and died.
MR VANANA: Yes, I did mention that.
JUDGE MILLER: Wasn't he a comrade of yours? Didn't you refer to him as a comrade?
MR VANANA: Yes, he was a comrade.
JUDGE MILLER: So why couldn't he put you on to members of PAC or APLA in Transkei? Why didn't you ask him to assist in finding somebody other than Mr Mzwake who was untraceable?
MR VANANA: It is became Mr Gebe had suggested, had told me about Mzwake, he did not mention anything about somebody else, because I had told Sanele that Mr Gebe was about to take me to somebody else.
JUDGE MILLER: Yes, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying, am I correct in this, that you were a card-carrying member of the PAC, keen to join APLA, but the only person you knew with any PAC connection was Mr Gebe?
MR VANANA: The only person that was known to me who would take me to join APLA was Mr Gebe, only Mr Gebe.
CHAIRPERSON: And you made no attempt to find anyone else, to approach the PAC organisation, despite the fact you were committing robberies and murders to join? Is that what you would have us believe?
MR VANANA: Yes, because I met with Mr Gebe who had told me that he was an APLA member, I believed him and I believed him as the only person who'd take me there for training. No one else was known to me or a person that was going to advise me further. I was satisfied with Mr Gebe.
JUDGE MOTATA: Before the attack on Mr Rossouw's farm, for how long did he know Mr Gebe?
MR VANANA: About a month. About three months.
JUDGE MOTATA: And where did you people meet, that is yourself and Mr Gebe?
MR VANANA: Mr Gebe was from the Transkei, he was staying at Mr Simphiwe Manshe's house. I used to visit Simphiwe Manshe in his house and I met with Mr Gebe and I asked him about his origin. He told me that he was coming from the Transkei. I asked him whether he was a comrade or not. He said, yes, he had trained as an APLA guerilla, that is when I told him that my intention also was to get training to be an APLA member.
JUDGE MOTATA: Thank you. You may proceed.
CHAIRPERSON: Before - but you were a PAC member, a card-carrying member, presumably you had been registered at a PAC branch when they issued you with a card.
MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you go back to that branch?
MR VANANA: I did not have a problem with Mr Gebe up until we reached Transkei. The reason for me not to go back to Dordrecht is solely because I knew that I was wanted, the police were after me. I decided to go and stay in Cape Town.
CHAIRPERSON: So you weren't really keen to go and join APLA, you decided to go to Cape Town?
MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, are you aware that this Comrade Gebe that you referred to, that he was declared an habitual criminal in 1983, Sir? Do you know that, Sir?
MR VANANA: He never mentioned that to me.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Didn't Mr Manshe maybe tell you that Mr Gebe was declared an habitual criminal because of his activities?
MR VANANA: He didn't tell me that, Simphiwe that is.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, am I right if I say that this farm, ...(indistinct) is about thirty kilometres out of town, is that right Sir?
MR VANANA: Are you talking about Mr Rossouw's farm?
MR VAN NIEKERK: That's correct. Maybe I must just abbreviate fully, thirty kilometres out of Dordrecht.
MR VANANA: Yes, I agree with you.
MR VAN NIEKERK: And Sir, am I further right that if I listen to you correctly, that your intention was to get money and to get firearms on the said farm, is that right Sir?
MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.
MR VAN NIEKERK: So it was not your intention, it was not your orders that you must take the vehicle, is that right Sir?
MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.
JUDGE MILLER: Sorry. Did you get any firearms from the farm?
MR VANANA: No.
JUDGE MILLER: You see what I - why didn't you get any firearms from the farm?
MR VANANA: I do not know Sir because we searched for the firearms but we couldn't find any.
JUDGE MILLER: Well this is what I don't understand because I read from your letter, this translation of page four
"When we entered the house, we met his wife"
that's Mr Rossouw's wife,
"who we also shot to death because she was trying to reach for a gun."
Did you write that?
MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.
JUDGE MILLER: Now if she was trying to reach for a gun, you say that you searched the house but couldn't find a gun, what are you saying? What about the gun she was trying to reach for? You didn't even have to search for it. You said that she was trying to reach for a gun so you shot her, now you say you searched the house and you couldn't find a gun. What is the truth?
MR VANANA: It was the firearm that was in Nelson's possession. When he was shot at, it was because she was trying to grab the gun that was in Nelson's possession.
JUDGE MILLER: Now the deceased, Mrs Rossouw, how old was she?
MR VANANA: I cannot be sure, but she was an elderly person.
JUDGE MILLER: I'm not sure if this is correct, but I think I remember seeing something. Was she not nearly eighty years of age? Eighty-two years of age.
CHAIRPERSON: He was, he was.
JUDGE MILLER: He was? Yes, in any event, so you say that the gun that you mention here that she was trying to reach for, was the gun in one of your robbers ...? She was seventy-two years of age, I'm told. Mr van Niekerk.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, just tell me now, how was it possible for you to see, or write in your letter here, that because she was trying to reach for the gun, while you just testified this morning that you heard a loud noise, Sir, so you couldn't have seen it, but how can you write this down in this letter of yours? Can you explain that Sir?
MR VANANA: Yes, I heard a gun shot. The fact that she was shot at while trying to grab a gun, that was explained by Nelson..
MR VAN NIEKERK: So why don't you write it like that, Sir? You said that
"We also shot to death because she was trying to reach for the gun"
Sir, that means that you were there, that you saw it.
MR VANANA: That is my mistake Sir.
MR VAN NIEKERK: I see. Now Sir, to get back to the farmhouse, that wasn't you intention to steal the vehicle, yet you were thirty kilometres out of town, it was six o'clock in the morning Sir, how did you investigate? How would you be able to leave the scene before the police would arrive there Sir? How did you think you would be able to get to Dordrecht or to the Transkei while you were thirty kilometres from the town Sir? Can you explain that?
MR VANANA: We decided upon taking the car after the mission, after taking the firearms and the money.
JUDGE MILLER: I think what Mr van Niekerk's asking you is, you said that when you went to the farm, your intention was to steal money and firearms and that it was not your intention to steal the motor car. That's what you said a few minutes ago when, in answer to a question put to you by Mr van Niekerk, you agree with that, or did you make a mistake when you said that?
MR VANANA: When I said that we went there for firearms, I thought that it was obvious that we were to take the car also because moving from the farm to the Transkei, it was quite a long distance.
JUDGE MILLER: Yes, but Mr van Niekerk a few minutes ago, specifically asked you, put it to you, he said to you: "So it was not your intention to steal the motor vehicle?"
And you said: "Yes, that was not our intention." That's what you said a matter of minutes ago.
CHAIRPERSON: Can I add something to that? You added, you said it was not your order or intention to steal the car.
JUDGE MILLER: To steal the car, that's what you said. Now was that wrong when you said that?
MR VANANA: I did not mention anything about the car but I think it was my mistake to omit that because truly speaking we took the car on the farm, we did not have means of transport.
JUDGE MILLER: How did you get ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: We're talking about what you said three minutes ago in your evidence, where you did say about the car, not what you wrote down on the paper, what you said to us here. You said that it was not your order or intention to get vehicles, you were just looking for money or weapons.
MR VANANA: I made a mistake perhaps.
JUDGE MILLER: Mr van Niekerk.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Thank you. Sir, don't you find it further surprising, Sir, that - I've got in my possession two statements made by your mother and made by your father that on the day when the police brought you to the scene to make some pointing-outs, that you said the following to them: "Sorry Mother" and further: "It was not my intention to come and do this on the farm, I only met somebody on the way from the Transkei who asked me to come to do this on the farm. We both then started to cry." And also a similar statement made by your father. What I'm asking you, Sir, is why didn't you mention to them then that this was politically motivated, Sir?
MR VANANA: The reason for me not to tell my parents was because of the fact that I knew very well that they were going to make statements about some things that I had uttered. I decided that I'd never tell them anything about politics in this matter.
MR VAN NIEKERK: But Sir am I not correct that you testified earlier today that you are not ashamed of being associated with the PAC, Sir and you are a very politically motivated person?
MR VANANA: Yes, I did mention that, Sir.
MR VAN NIEKERK: So why didn't you tell that to your father and mother, because you were doing it for them, Sir?
MR VANANA: Because I was arrested, I decided that I will not tell them.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Thank you. Honourable Chairperson, I just wish to hand these documents as Exhibits, that's A6 and A8 affidavit and then also the previous conviction of Mr Gebe that was referred to.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone) Exhibit A and Exhibit B. Exhibit A will be the statement by Elliot Ntululi Vanana, is that Exhibit A?
CHAIRPERSON: And Anna Vanana, Exhibit B.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Ja, then the previous convictions for Mr Gebe.
CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit C, the impressive list of previous convictions relating mainly to theft, escaping ...(indistinct - no microphone)
MR VAN NIEKERK: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Sir, to get back to that R5 000 that you got for this vehicle that you sold, how long did that R5 000 last you?
MR VANANA: If I'm not mistaken, I think it was a month and three weeks.
MR VAN NIEKERK: And am I right, Sir, that this R12 000 was used for your own needs, is that right Sir?
MR VANANA: Yes, we used it for our own needs, because we did not have money for food when we were staying in Idutwa.
MR VAN NIEKERK: I see. Now Sir, where did you get money to travel to Cape Town? Where did you get that money from?
MR VANANA: I made an arrangement to pay later from Transkei to Queenstown, but when I arrived in Queenstown, I ran away from the owner of the taxi, when I arrived in the taxi rank, so I did not pay.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir, just tell me now further that as you knew, Mr and Mrs Rossouw were on the farm, you probably knew that they were very old people, is that right Sir?
MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.
MR VAN NIEKERK: So you probably knew that three young, strong men wouldn't have any difficulties in overpowering them, is that right Sir?
MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Now Sir, the question I wanted to ask right from the start is then, why did you have to kill them, or why did you have to kill Mrs Rossouw then, why?
MR VANANA: According to what I heard from Nelson, Mrs Rossouw tried to grab the firearm that he was pointing her with.
CHAIRPERSON: That is an old woman of seventy-two tried to grab a firearm from Nelson, a young man.
JUDGE MILLER: Why did you stab Mr van Niekerk?
MR VAN NIEKERK: That's Mr Rossouw.
JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr van Niekerk, I get mixed up, Mr Rossouw, why did you stab Mr Rossouw?
MR VANANA: It is because he did not want to tell us where the money and the firearms were.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Sir but didn't you testify that you were busy torturing him? Was that necessary Sir?
MR VANANA: According to Mr Gebe, he said that if he was not telling us where the money was, it was necessary for us to torture him, so that is why we tortured him.
MR VAN NIEKERK: I see. Now Sir, don't you think that the four of you, if you used balaclavas and you just tied up Mr Rossouw and Mrs Rossouw, that the three of you could have searched this house and could have found the weapons or the money on your own? Isn't that also a possibility, Sir?
MR VANANA: It could have been so, but according what we were told, we were not told to do it that way.
CHAIRPERSON: Torture doesn't mean stabbing an old man with a knife, does it? You could twist his fingers, slap his face, a number of ways you could make things painful for him, weren't there?
MR VANANA: Yes, there are many ways, but what we were told, we were told to stab him with a knife, because we were given knives when we were from the township in Dordrecht and Mr Gebe had a firearm.
CHAIRPERSON: And he gave you knives to tell you to stab the old man, is that what you're saying?
MR VANANA: Yes, that is what I'm saying.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Now Sir, am I right that you were the only person that knew about the pliers in the said garage, is that right Sir?
MR VANANA: That is correct.
MR VAN NIEKERK: So you were the person that went into the store to get the pliers, is that right?
MR VANANA: I was the one who broke the window and I also took them. They were standing outside. After breaking the window, I then gave Mr Gebe the pliers outside.
MR VAN NIEKERK: I see. You were the person that also cut the wires, is that right Sir? The telephone wire, sorry.
MR VANANA: No.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Who cut the telephone wires then Sir?
MR VANANA: There were two pliers there. It was Mr Gebe who cut the wires. I was also on the tree, but I didn't get the pliers and then Mr Gebe did that job because he is the one who got the pliers first.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Just lastly what I want to ask you is that am I right if I say that you were plus minus a month and a half in the Transkei while you were looking to join the PAC is that right, or the APLA, the armed wing of the PAC?
MR VANANA: That is correct, Sir.
MR VAN NIEKERK: And in that month and a half, you could not find this person that was in Butterworth so that you could join the APLA force, is that right Sir?
MR VANANA: Yes, that is correct.
MR VAN NIEKERK: So you did not leave messages for him and Mr Gebe with all his contacts, was not able to get hold of this person, is that right Sir?
MR VANANA: Every time when we went to Butterworth, we would leave messages to the lady there that when he arrived, she must tell him that we were looking for him and we were in Idutwa, so we would always leave messages when we would go there.
CHAIRPERSON: And you got no response?
MR VANANA: No we got no response.
CHAIRPERSON: So this was obviously a useless contact, wasn't it? A man who couldn't be bothered to reply to your messages. Can you explain why you didn't then go to one of the PAC, if you were in fact keen to join APLA, go to one of the PAC branches and tell them that you wanted to join because we know the PAC were always looking for recruits.
MR VANANA: When we would arrive there, we were told that he was not there or he didn't come, but we always left messages, so we would be told that he did not come or he was not there, so I thought that this lady was trying to reach this Mr Mzwake, but Mr Mzwake was not going to that place.
CHAIRPERSON: So it was a useless contact. He was not going to that place. You have just told us that is what you believed. Why didn't you go elsewhere if you were in fact keen to join APLA?
MR VANANA: I thought that it would be Mr Mzwake that would take me to training as he was chosen by Mr Nelson, the person who knew me from where I come from. So I trusted him that the person that he chose, he would be the one with the full knowledge of what was going to happen.
CHAIRPERSON: But you have just told us, you thought that person was not going to that house.
Would this be a convenient stage to take the short adjournment?
MR VAN NIEKERK: Yes Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: We'll now take the short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
ON RESUMPTION
SITHEMBISO DAVID VANANA: (s.u.o.)
CHAIRPERSON: You did say that you'd finished, didn't you?
MR VAN NIEKERK: Yes, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I have only one more question to ask. So just lastly here, don't you find it strange that my client has informed me that while you were still on the farm, or around Dordrecht, that there were constant thefts at Sarelsdale where this incident took place, but since you left the said area and you were locked up, that since that date there was no theft or any similar activities being done on Sarah's Dale. Don't you think that is a strange coincidence?
MR VANANA: This also surprises me.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Don't you think Sir that this is related to the fact that you are not there anymore, Sir?
MR VANANA: I think that if it was me, those things were going to be found on me, if I was the one stealing or taking
them, so it is possible that it was someone else, because I'm not involved.
MR VAN NIEKERK: No further questions, Mr Chairperson
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN NIEKERK
S THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, I'm not going to cross-examine. Just one aspect to clarify.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Mr Vanana, you've testified earlier on that you joined the PAC at the Dordrecht PAC offices. Correct?
MR VANANA: That is correct.
MS THABETHE: Are you aware that there were actually no PAC or there are no PAC offices in Dordrecht?
MR VANANA: At that time there was a PAC office because I've got my membership card from ...(indistinct)
MS THABETHE: How come then there's no record that these offices existed?
MR VANANA: I don't know. I don't know why there are no records.
MS THABETHE: Are you sure there were offices or you just heard that there were PAC offices?
MR VANANA: I am sure that there were PAC offices there. One of the offices was next to the bar in town.
MS THABETHE: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
JUDGE MILLER: If I may just ask a question on that. How did you lose your card, your membership card?
MR VANANA: I lost my card when we were running away, when Sanele was being shot, we were running away from the police.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that all?
MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair, that's all.
CHAIRPERSON: No re-examination?
MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: I have one question that arises from the police report on page ten. Did you also steal clothing and other goods from the house?
MR VANANA: No, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: And you have said you got no money because the police record there having been property to the value of a thousand rand involved. Is that incorrect? You say that is incorrect?
MR VANANA: It is not correct, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: That concludes ...(intervention)
MR MBANDAZAYO: That concludes the evidence of the applicant.
WITNESS EXCUSED
CHAIRPERSON: I take it you have no witnesses you wish to call?
MR VAN NIEKERK: Mr Chairperson, my client doesn't want to testify, he just wants me just to make a brief statement on his behalf.
CHAIRPERSON: We'll give you a chance to make a statement in a moment. You're not calling any evidence?
MR VAN NIEKERK: No, I'm not going to call any evidence.
MS THABETHE: No evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: We'll hear the applicant first, if he has anything he wishes to say, or his counsel.
MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, there is not much I want to say except to say that for the sake of consistency and certainly, I would like to bore the Committee because I have two similar cases to this one before which I have had. Luckily Judge Miller and Judge Motata were present that day in Johannesburg and Adv ...(indistinct) where applicant George Sapele, case AM5022/97, broke out of prison and stole money in prison in order to join APLA, he was also following a member of APLA, but unfortunately the Committee felt that he was not a member of APLA. What he did, he was not doing it on behalf of APLA and so the results were negative, so I won't like to bore the Committee because I have a precedent in front of me to which to refer and also the case of Ramaila last year, 24th
September 1999, AM3740/96 where the Committee comprised of Judge Pillay, Adv Sigodi and Mr Wynand Malan, a similar case where a farm was robbed and this particular person is also similar to this, he was working on the farm, on the same farm, he was a worker on the same farm where he robbed and killed the farmer in order to join PAC, APLA, so also there the results were negative. What I'm trying to get is that I cannot take my case any further Chairperson. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Give - you have given me the first, the second number was 3740 of 96.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, AM3740/96 and the other one is 5022/97.
CHAIRPERSON: Thanks. Oh, you wish to make a statement.
MR VAN NIEKERK: Yes, thank you Mr Chairperson.
MR VAN NIEKERK IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairperson on behalf of my client and the family Rossouw, Mr Chairperson, it is my instructions to oppose this amnesty on the following grounds, that apart from what was heard today, it is our belief that this was not done for any political gain. There was no proportionality as well as the fact that the person involved did not make a full confession or didn't put all the facts in front of the Commission today.
Firstly, that he testified today about other incidents that he did not tell the inquirer of the Commission, there was no such proof or Mr Mbethe, that was the person that actually did the investigation, that he wasn't aware of the facts, this was omitted by the applicant. I think that this is detrimental to his application.
Furthermore, I'm not going to abbreviate any further. There were contradictions right from the start. I think the Commission is well aware of all the different contradictions and I just want to lastly say that I agree with what Judge Reddy said on page 29 when he said that in that case that he found the accused a cunning and a sly witness.
I therefore request humbly that amnesty not be granted to the applicant. Thank you.
MS THABETHE: I support my learned colleague.
NO ARGUMENT BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: We'll take time. What's the next matter?
JUDGE MILLER: The decision is reserved, we hand down written decisions. It's the policy to hand down written decisions which will be done in the very near future.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you want a short adjournment now? When I say short, I mean literally a minute or two, to short out your?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, just to short out ...(indistinct)
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, we'll take a very short adjournment.
COMMITTEE ADJOURNS
