CHAIRPERSON: Who is the next applicant?
MR SIBEKO: The next applicant is Mr Joseph Tshabalala.
CHAIRPERSON: Will Mr Joseph Tshabalala come to the witness stand.
CHAIRPERSON: Which application is that, does it relate to Lusaka-A or what?
MR SIBEKO: It relates to Lusaka-A, Mr Chairman. May apologies - Johannes Tshabalala.
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, his application appears on page 149 of the first bundle.
CHAIRPERSON: Please put that on and tell me if you hear, Mr Tshabalala.
MR TSHABALALA: Yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand and give us your full names.
JOHANNES DINGAAN TSHABALALA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko?
...(end of tape)
EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: ...(inaudible)
MR TSHABALALA: The reason why I am applying for amnesty, I was a person who would collect monies from the community to purchase unlawful firearms and the ammunition as well.
MR SIBEKO: Where did you do that Sir, in which area of Thokoza?
MR TSHABALALA: At Kethlegelo.
MR SIBEKO: Is Kethlegelo within the section of Lusaka-A?
MR TSHABALALA: Yes, it is a school that is located in Lusaka-A.
MR SIBEKO: Under whose instructions were you acting at the time you collected that money?
MR TSHABALALA: I received my instruction from the community of Lusaka-A.
MR SIBEKO: After having collected that money were you directly involved in purchasing those arms and ammunition?
MR TSHABALALA: No, I did not take any part in it. We would forward the money to the Committee of Seven.
MR SIBEKO: Now in your application form, in one of the answers you say you were a member or an office bearer of the ANC Sectional Committee, what did this have to do with the SDUs?
MR TSHABALALA: I was a chairperson under the civic where the community will gather and discuss about the decisions that have to be taken.
MR SIBEKO: After the words
"ANC Sectional Committee."
... there is SDU, and then:
"(Thokoza)"
If you don't mind, have a look at your application form. MR TSHABALALA: In actual fact I was a chairperson of the civic. The paper came back to refer to me as an SDU member and I replied and contradicted that.
MR SIBEKO: So in fact what you're saying is that this is all a mistake?
MR TSHABALALA: Yes, it is a mistake for them to refer to me as an SDU member.
MR SIBEKO: But I'm under the impression that this form is yours and it should have been completed by yourself.
MR TSHABALALA: Yes, the form is mine, it belongs to me. And these things came back from Cape Town and I discovered that there SDU appearing there and I wrote back to correct that error referring to me as an SDU member.
MR SIBEKO: Were you involved in any of the activities of the Self Defence Units, that is using arms in defence or in attack against any of the then enemies of the SDUs?
MR TSHABALALA: No, I did not partake.
MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO
CHAIRPERSON: Cross-examination?
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Questions by the panel?
ADV SANDI: No questions, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: The money that you collected, did you know that it was going to be used to buy arms illegally
to be used by the Self Defence Units to defend the community in Lusaka-A?
MR TSHABALALA: There's one part I missed, please repeat your question.
CHAIRPERSON: The money that you collected, did you know that it was to be used to buy arms illegally, which arms were to be used by the SDUs to defend the community in Lusaka-A?
MR TSHABALALA: Yes, I knew that.
CHAIRPERSON: And are you asking for amnesty in respect of that?
MR TSHABALALA: Yes, in respect of that.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any re-examination?
MR SIBEKO: None, Mr Chairman, thank you.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Tshabalala, you are excused.
WITNESS EXCUSED
