Amnesty Hearings

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, with the Commission's permission, I have spoken to my learned colleagues and none of them have an objection. I would like to call the applicant Mr Botha, who was one of the footsoldiers, but he's got commitments and unfortunately that makes it very difficult for him, and with the Commission's permission, I would like to call him at this stage. My learned friends have indicated that they've got no objections.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Your full names, Mr Botha? Your full names?

MR BOTHA: Pieter Hendrik Botha.

PIETER HENDRIK BOTHA: (sworn states)

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, you may be seated, sworn in Mr Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Botha, your amnesty application commences on page 327 of the record, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And you deal with this incident specifically from page 346?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You are applying for amnesty for all offences which may be related to the elimination of the four who you refer to as the four unknown cadres at that stage?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: For the sake of completion, we will lead your evidence later, but do you know how many persons actually died there, from your own knowledge?

MR BOTHA: No.

MR BOOYENS: Was it hearsay that you thought that there were four persons?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

INTERPRETER: The applicant's microphone is not on.

MR BOOYENS: Do you confirm the correctness of your application up to and including page 345?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Botha, your microphone.

MR BOOYENS: I think I better start again, Mr Chairman, thank you. Mr Botha, you have the amnesty application before you which appears from page 327, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And you summarise your background on page 345?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Do you confirm the correctness thereof?

MR BOTHA: Yes, I do.

MR BOOYENS: And then on page 346 you deal with this particular case?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And you are applying for any offences, omissions or deeds which may emanate from the eliminate of the four unknown cadres as you put it, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Did you have any personal knowledge of the number of persons who died during the incident?

MR BOTHA: No, I did not.

MR BOOYENS: So it was hearsay?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: On page 347 you state that it was during 1987, 1988, when you made your application, did you know what the correct date was?

MR BOTHA: No.

MR BOOYENS: You have heard the evidence of Brig Oosthuizen who states that it was during February 1989, do you accept that as correct?

MR BOTHA: Yes, I do.

MR BOOYENS: At that stage you were stationed at Vlakplaas, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And a number of you were called together at a stage by Col de Kock, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And what did Col de Kock tell you, why was he convening you?

MR BOTHA: He said that we should prepare ourselves for a cross-border operation in Swaziland and that the objective of the operation would be to eliminate ANC terrorists. Do you want me to address you about my particular share in this matter?

MR BOOYENS: No, just continue with what Mr de Kock told you.

MR BOTHA: Upon that, we departed, after we had packed everything, we went through the Oshoek border post and used false passports.

MR BOOYENS: Just a moment, he said that you were supposed to set up an ambush for a number of ANC terrorists?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: At that stage, did he provide any particulars about what these persons were doing, just briefly?

MR BOTHA: Well, he told us that they were ANC terrorists, who were going to infiltrate the country and that we had to stop them from doing so.

MR BOOYENS: Did he say anything about an order which came from a higher level?

MR BOTHA: Yes, he said that it was an authorised operation.

MR BOOYENS: Very well. You have given evidence during other hearings as well, but let us just re-examine this. You were a member of Vlakplaas, what was your rank?

MR BOTHA: Warrant Officer.

MR BOOYENS: Was there any way in which you could study the Intelligence which would have come from D-Section?

MR BOTHA: No, it was not possible for me.

MR BOOYENS: Did you work on the pre-supposition that information which came to you from the Intelligence section was correct and verified?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You received the order, you were told what it was, that they were ANC terrorists who wanted to infiltrate the country, and were you satisfied then that under those circumstances, it would be the sort of operation that fell within the operational field of Vlakplaas?

MR BOTHA: Yes, I was satisfied with that.

MR BOOYENS: Very well. You then went through the border post with false passports, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You are aware of the most recent decision by the Appeals Court?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: However, I think it might just be advisable just to describe briefly the role that you played, if anybody else wishes to put anything to you about it, they may, is it correct that you and Mr Baker were basically in Mbabane to observe when the persons who were coming through from the Transvaal, would make contact with the askaris?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: The contact persons that they had to make contact with, were apparently ANC persons but actually askaris who pretended to be ANC members?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You and Mr Baker were supposed to contact Mr de Kock and the others via radio as soon as contact had been established?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: These persons were late, is that correct?

MR BOTHA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And it has already been put, did you then take any steps to contact Mr de Kock and the others by radio?

MR BOTHA: Yes, initially we tried to contact them by radio, but if I recall correctly, we were in Manzini. We could not establish contact, it was a mountainous region, and therefore we had to drive around in the vicinity, in the scene of the incident in order to find a place to make contact with them from.

MR BOOYENS: I put this to Mr Coetzee this morning, you may have heard that at one stage he was called by telephone and asked where the persons were?

MR BOTHA: Yes, after we had made contact, our instructions were to contact the Johannesburg number to determine what had happened. I made the call and I spoke to Capt Coetzee, he told me that the code name Flower Arrangement, was late.

MR BOOYENS: Very well, did you return to Manzini?

MR BOTHA: Yes, we did.

MR BOOYENS: And what happened then, just very briefly?

MR BOTHA: In Manzini, we saw somewhat later, how they established contact and we also saw the Opel Kadett being led away on the road which had been indicated to them.

MR BOOYENS: Led by whom?

MR BOTHA: By two of our members.

MR BOOYENS: In another vehicle?

MR BOTHA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And did they then drive in the direction of the scene of the ambush?

MR BOTHA: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Did you and Baker drive passed them?

MR BOTHA: Yes, we had to at one point.

MR BOOYENS: Did you then give the radio signal that the people were being led in?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Apparently Mr Baker knew where they were supposed to turn off?

MR BOTHA: Yes, he knew where the scene was and he also managed the radio because I did the driving.

MR BOOYENS: You then drove passed the point and stopped?

MR BOTHA: Yes, we drove passed the point and then stopped after we had made radio contact.

MR BOOYENS: Did you see them turn off?

MR BOTHA: No, we did not see them turn off.

MR BOOYENS: But they were no longer behind you?

MR BOTHA: No. We accepted that the other vehicle which was driven by the askaris, would lead them to the place.

MR BOOYENS: That is the last that you had to do with it?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And then the following day you went back over the border post?

MR BOTHA: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Do you confirm the rest of your amnesty application?

MR BOTHA: Yes, I do.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

MR HATTINGH: Hattingh on record, Mr Chairman, we have no questions, thank you.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chairman, Cornelius on behalf of implicated party, Vermeulen. I refer you to page 348 of your amnesty application, if you look at the second last paragraph where you say that if you are not mistaken, you mention a list of names of persons who were involved in the incident, I assume that this was quite some time ago and you may be mistaken as to Mr Vermeulen's presence or not.

MR BOTHA: Do you want to know if I am mistaken?

MR CORNELIUS: Yes.

MR BOTHA: Yes, it is possible.

MR CORNELIUS: If Snyman had been there, it would sound more correct?

MR BOTHA: That is correct. Yes, I confirm it as such.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

MR NEL: Nel, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman, Rossouw. Mr Botha, may I refer you to page 348 as well, the very same paragraph to which Mr Cornelius has referred you to, there you state the name of Warrant Officer Nortje. Is it possible that with regard to his presence, you may also be mistaken?

MR BOTHA: Yes, it is also possible.

MR ROSSOUW: Very well, and then just for the purposes of the record, Mr Chairman, I am in possession of an affidavit by Mr Nortje, which states that he was not involved in the planning or the execution of this operation, and I will hand it in to the Committee at a later stage, once copies have been made available for all my colleagues. Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW

MR BOTHA: Botha, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOTHA

MR VISSER: Visser, Mr Chairman, neither do I, thank you.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN HEERDEN: Van Heerden Mr Chairman, I've got one question. Mr Botha, how many persons were in the Opel Kadett vehicle?

MR BOTHA: As I have stated earlier, I will have to rely on hearsay when I say that three were shot dead there. It is my understanding when we left the scene, that there were four persons, but at the stage when we passed the vehicle, I was driving at a very high speed and I cannot really tell you whether there were three, four or maybe even five persons inside the vehicle.

MR VAN HEERDEN: That is all I want to know, I just want to know if you know how many people there were in the vehicle, thank you very much Mr Chairperson, nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN HEERDEN

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN HEERDEN

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Botha, I don't know whether I misunderstood you, you said these ANC people in actual fact met the askaris, they didn't meet the ANC?

MR BOTHA: Well, sir, if I have to elaborate on that, when they met the people at the post office in Manzini, the two askaris that met them, was as far as they knew, were ANC members. That is all I knew, and that is all they could have known.

MR SIBANYONI: And these askaris were from Vlakplaas?

MR BOTHA: Yes, they were.

MR SIBANYONI: Would you say they were completely set up, it was not an actual meeting between the students and the ANC?

MR BOTHA: Well, as far as I know it was an interception of them, how the planning worked, I cannot elaborate. What I do know is I knew them connecting with them and taking them from there.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I am a bit confused. Had they just arrived from South Africa?

MR BOTHA: Sir, I really don't know whether they had just arrived. We just knew they would come along that point.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were waiting for them there?

MR BOTHA: Yes, we were.

CHAIRPERSON: And when they didn't come and they were late, you phoned up Johannesburg and were told they had left late?

MR BOTHA: Yes, then we were told they left late.

CHAIRPERSON: So it would appear they were on their way in from South Africa?

MR BOTHA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And they met these askaris and were taken straight to the point of ambush?

MR BOTHA: Yes, that is the way I saw it, sir.

ADV SANDI: I take it that from what you have just said, you are not able to say as to whether these ANC activists from the Republic of South Africa had met any other person before meeting the two askaris at the post office?

MR BOTHA: No, I am unable to say sir.

ADV SANDI: If it had happened, would you have known?

MR BOTHA: No, there is no way I could have known sir.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR BOOYENS: No re-examination, Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS

CHAIRPERSON: You are excused on condition that if it should become necessary to recall you, arrangements can be made.

MR BOTHA: Thanks a lot sir.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, I am indebted to the Committee for the indulgence granted to me.

WITNESS EXCUSED