Amnesty Hearings

ON RESUMPTION

MR VISSER: If I may proceed, I beg leave to call Gen Ignatius Coetzee, to give evidence.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Coetzee, your full names please?

MR COETZEE: Ignatius Coetzee.

IGNATIUS COETZEE: (sworn states)

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, you may be seated. Sworn in Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Coetzee, you are also an applicant in this matter, and you have completed a proper application, which was submitted before the cut off date to the TRC, is that correct?

MR COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Your application can be found in the Bundle, from page 11 to 20 and you deal with this incident from page 12 to 14, is that correct?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Have you studied Exhibit A and do you agree with the content thereof and do you also request that Exhibit A be incorporated with your evidence and be regarded as read in, when your amnesty application is considered?

MR COETZEE: Yes, I confirm this.

MR VISSER: Do you also confirm your formal application which we have briefly referred to, subject to the evidence that you will deliver before the Committee here today?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You have compiled a statement which has been submitted as Exhibit F in which you provide further details regarding your knowledge and participation in this incident, is that correct?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And do you also then request that the statement which is Exhibit F be regarded as portion of your evidence?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: General, in 1986 you were the Divisional Commander of the Security Branch, Soweto, is that correct?

MR COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Do you agree with the other officers who have already testified here and their positions below you in the Intelligence Unit of the Security Branch in Soweto, about which they testified here?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: In your initial statement for amnesty you stated that the events surrounding this incident are vague in your recollection, but that you recall that you were called to the Security Head Office where you attended a meeting on a certain day?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Before we proceed, I would just like to ask you whether you as Divisional Commander, had knowledge regarding information which had been obtained regarding security matters by the Intelligence Division of the Soweto Branch?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And did you possess information and knowledge regarding the activities of the members of the MK cell named September Machinery in Swaziland?

MR COETZEE: Yes, I did.

MR VISSER: Were you informed at that stage regarding a meeting which took place in Middelburg in the Transvaal where the security situation and the activities of the Transvaal Machinery, the September Machinery in Swaziland, was discussed and was any report made to you regarding what was discussed and decided during the meeting?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Who reported this to you?

MR COETZEE: It would have been Col de Jager.

MR VISSER: If we could get to this meeting which took place in Pretoria, can you recall the date?

MR COETZEE: It was on a Friday.

MR VISSER: Who was involved in the meeting? Perhaps you can just refer to paragraph 4, just to expedite matters?

MR COETZEE: I shall do so, paragraph 4. Do you want me to read the names?

MR VISSER: Just read the paragraph.

MR COETZEE: Gen Johan van der Merwe, Brig Schoon, Col de Kock, Col de Jager and me.

MR VISSER: You have heard that Col de Kock cannot recall whether he was present during this meeting, what is your recollection, do you have a clear recollection of his presence there or is your recollection regarding this matter, also vague?

MR COETZEE: No, he was definitely there.

MR VISSER: You can recall that Col de Kock was present during the meeting?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: What took place during this meeting?

MR COETZEE: I refer to paragraph 5, the necessity and advisability and practical viability of the action was discussed. The urgency of the proposed action against the particular group, was also discussed. Viewed in the light of their probable share in the tremendous spate of political unrest and violence which was at the order of the day during that period of time in the Transvaal.

MR VISSER: Proceed.

MR COETZEE: According to reliable information, the group consisted of the following persons - Glory Sidibe, MK September who was the Commander, MK Mzala, MK Pantsu, MK Sipho, MK Buzi and MK Ben.

MR VISSER: Did you know any of these persons by any other name?

MR COETZEE: No, not at all.

MR VISSER: And then at the end of the discussions, at paragraph 7?

MR COETZEE: I read further, at the end of the discussions, Gen van der Merwe expressed his approval for the action to continue. It would involve the elimination of Glory Sidibe and as many of the other members of the September Machinery as possible, if they could be obtained. Col de Kock would be the Operational Commander for the operation.

MR VISSER: After the meeting, there was a discussion between you and Brig Schoon?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And arrangements were made and the following day, you went to the Oshoek border post?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And did you spend the Saturday night into Sunday morning, at the Oshoek border post?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And where, in what building at the Oshoek border post did you spend the night?

MR COETZEE: I would imagine that it was a guest house.

MR VISSER: Who spent the night there with you on that Saturday?

MR COETZEE: Brig Schoon, Col van Wyngaard and myself.

MR VISSER: How did Col van Wyngaard become involved in the matter?

MR COETZEE: I was new in the Transvaal, I did not know the way and on the Friday after my return from Pretoria, I instructed or requested him to accompany me to Oshoek the following day.

MR VISSER: On the way to Oshoek, did you inform him about the proposed action?

MR COETZEE: Yes, I did.

MR VISSER: And did he associate himself with that?

MR COETZEE: Correct.

MR VISSER: Can you recall whether Brig Schalk Visser spent the night there at Oshoek, what is your recollection?

MR COETZEE: I cannot place him in my recollection of having been there with me, but according to logic and the course of events, it would have been highly improbable if he had not been there with us.

MR VISSER: So you would accept if he says that he was there?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And the following morning, in paragraph 12, you state - who reported to you?

MR COETZEE: Col de Jager who was accompanied by a group of members. I can recall Col de Kock, but I cannot recall the other members by name.

MR VISSER: Then continue with paragraph 13 regarding what they reported.

MR COETZEE: I can no longer recall the precise particulars of what they reported, but the overall core of it was that MK September, or Glory Sidibe was not at the safehouse itself and that three other terrorists who were present in the house during the action, had died at that particular premises. I also recall that a number of propaganda documents or literature and weapons among others, limpet mines, which had been found at the relevant premises and taken into possession, were shown to us.

MR VISSER: After you received the report, did you go anywhere?

MR COETZEE: Shortly thereafter, we departed upon the request of Brig Schoon. We went to Pretoria to the home of Commissioner Johan Coetzee.

MR VISSER: And what happened there at his residence?

MR COETZEE: I read from paragraph 15 - at Gen Coetzee's residence in Pretoria, Brig Schoon instructed me and Col van Wyngaard to wait with our vehicle. Brig Schoon accompanied by a number of other members, among others as I recall correctly Col de Jager and Col de Kock, entered Gen Coetzee's residence thereafter. Shortly afterwards, all the aforementioned members re-emerged from the residence after which Brig Schoon told me that we could go.

MR VISSER: You have heard the evidence this morning of Messrs Coetzee, Pretorius and de Jager, is that correct?

MR COETZEE: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Is there anything regarding their evidence that you do not concur with?

MR COETZEE: No, not at all.

MR VISSER: And at all times you were aware that the plan was to eliminate MK September and as many members of her Unit as possible?

MR COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you associate yourself with this action?

MR COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And what was the reason why you went to Oshoek?

MR COETZEE: It was primarily to offer moral support to the members and to address any problems that may have occurred. Brig Schoon and I would have addressed such problems.

MR VISSER: After the operation, you did not report it as an offence, is that correct?

MR COETZEE: Yes.

MR VISSER: And do you agree or do you confirm what you state in paragraphs 21 to 24 with regard to the circumstances of the time and your political motivation for your participation in this action?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You then request amnesty with regard to (a) as Commissioner de Jager has correctly indicated, perhaps it would be more relevant to say that it was conspiracy to murder Glory Sidibe and conspiracy to murder Pantsu Smith, Sipho Dlamini and Buzi Majola. Did you cross the border?

MR COETZEE: No.

MR VISSER: So (c) is not applicable? (d) you did not participate in the action itself, so (d) is also not of application to you, however, you are applicable for defeating the ends of justice and or any other offence or delict which may emanate from the evidence?

MR COETZEE: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you Chairperson.

ADV DE JAGER: Just by the way, the heading of this application ...

MR VISSER: It is in line with the argument that we submitted to the Amnesty Committee the week before last.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, Hattingh on record, I have no questions for this witness, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH

MR ROSSOUW: I also don't have any questions, Mr Chairman.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW

MR PRINSLOO: Prinsloo Chairperson, no questions.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you Chairperson.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions Mr Chairman, thank you.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP

MR SIBANYONI: I've got no questions Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: There being no questions, this witness is released on the usual terms.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry not witness, applicant.

WITNESS EXCUSED