ON RESUMPTION
MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, may I with your leave, call Mr de Kock as the next applicant.
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, there is a request that the microphones might just be changed before we continue.
MR SIBANYONI: Your full names Mr de Kock?
MR DE KOCK: Eugene Alexander de Kock.
EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: (sworn states)
MR SIBANYONI: Please be seated, sworn in Chairperson.
EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, Mr de Kock apologises for his unshaven condition, it is attributable to administrative problems that he experienced with the Department of Correctional Services, this morning, Mr Chairman. Mr de Kock, you are an applicant for amnesty in this matter, is that correct?
MR DE KOCK: That is correct Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Your application appears in the Bundle, from page 1 to page 10, is that correct?
MR DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, that is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Do you confirm once again the supplementary affidavit which you have made about Vlakplaas as such?
MR DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Which has been handed up at several occasions to the Committee?
MR DE KOCK: Yes Chairperson, correct.
MR HATTINGH: Do you confirm the correctness of the allegations embodied in the application?
MR DE KOCK: That is correct.
ADV DE JAGER: Mr Hattingh, there were pages ...(end of tape 2B) ... page 84 was omitted and we requested that it be found. Is it available.
MR HATTINGH: Pages 84 and 85 were omitted from my copy and the Chairperson's secretary has handed over copies to me. I accept that she handed copies to you as well, Chairperson.
ADV DE JAGER: Yes, I have it, thank you.
EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Mr de Kock, you have heard the evidence of the other applicants in this matter.
MR DE KOCK: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Do you confirm that you attended a meeting at Middelburg, during which the problem was discussed?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And do you confirm that the information which they say was submitted in the meeting, as far as you can recall?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, that's correct.
MR HATTINGH: In your application you mention the MK name of one of the activists, MK Pantsu.
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, he was a prominent operative and this was attributable to his activities. Not only Eastern Transvaal and Soweto reported about it, but Port Natal also reported about it. He was in the logistical line and he was extremely active. Daily reports came in about him.
MR HATTINGH: So despite the information which was conveyed during the meeting, you also had information about this person's activities?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And although you could not recall the names of the other persons in your statement, do you confirm that other names were mentioned to you?
MR DE KOCK: That's correct.
MR HATTINGH: And do you accept that these were the names mentioned to you?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And do you accept that it was said during this meeting that it was necessary to act against these people?
MR DE KOCK: Undoubtedly, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: For the purpose of which they had made the recommendation?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And do you confirm that Brig Schoon then appointed you as operational commander for this operation?
MR DE KOCK: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And that authorisation would be received from head office firstly?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And do you confirm, as far as you know, that head office did provide authorisation and permission to continue with the operation?
MR DE KOCK: That's correct.
MR HATTINGH: You cannot recall who attended the meeting?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, I don't have any independent recollection, but the probability is so high that I would conceded that it is undoubted.
MR HATTINGH: Did you attend many more meetings at Gen van der Merwe's office?
MR DE KOCK: I was at such meetings, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And do you accept that if you were present at the meeting, that you had permission from the Head of Security to continue?
MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: You have also heard the versions of the other applicants as to how the operation was executed. I will ask you to tell us your version of the operation, from the time that you arrived in Swaziland.
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, my group and I moved through at the Oshoek border post. I think we had two vehicles, of which the one was a minibus, a Volkswagen, which had hidden panels in which we had hidden a variety of arms fitted with silencers. We hid them in these panels.
MR HATTINGH: Was this the same vehicle which was used in the matter which the Panel heard last week? Last week was the other operation in Swaziland, during which the three persons were lured into an ambush.
MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, this was another kombi.
MR HATTINGH: So you had more than one vehicle at Vlakplaas, which were equipped with hidden panels?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Please continue then.
MR DE KOCK: We went to the Royal Swazi Spa, my people and I, we rented rooms there and it was also the point where we awaited the members of Soweto and we met there. In one of the rooms which was set up as an operational room we waited for tidings of this terrorist from the informer. The managing was done by Col Pretorius and Coetzee from Soweto.
MR HATTINGH: While you are at it, you have made a schematic representation of the persons who, according to your recollection, were involved in the operation, according to rank structure, is that correct?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, that's correct.
MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I have copies. May I hand up to you copies of this document which Mr de Kock prepared here in the Committee room a few moments ago.
MR HATTINGH: Very well. And for this operation you placed Gen Johan Coetzee as Commission at the top and under him, Gen van der Merwe and below him, Brig Schoon.
MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And then there was Gen Coetzee.
MR DE KOCK: That is correct.
MR HATTINGH: Ignasius Coetzee from Soweto Security.
MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And below him, Col de Jager, Lt-Col Coetzee and Lt-Col Pretorius.
MR DE KOCK: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And you also mentioned there that van Wyngaard you cannot recall his rank.
MR DE KOCK: I cannot recall him at all, Chairperson, I cannot place him anywhere.
MR HATTINGH: And if you accept that he was present, could you recall what his rank was at that time?
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, he may have been a Major or a Colonel, I'm not entirely certain.
MR HATTINGH: Directly under Brig Schoon it is then Vlakplaas, with you as the commander.
MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And below that members of C1 under command, which include Capt van Dyk and Sgt Willemse, who were specifically involved in this operation.
MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And then on the right-hand side we have the men from the Eastern Transvaal.
MR DE KOCK: That's correct.
MR HATTINGH: Under the command of Col Visser.
MR DE KOCK: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And below him, Col Deetlefs.
MR DE KOCK: That's correct.
MR HATTINGH: And below him, W/O Freek Pienaar.
MR DE KOCK: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Very well. You have now said that you found accommodation in Swaziland. Were talks held there, was information exchanged, what happened there?
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, on a regular basis, Capt Coetzee and Pretorius left the room and attempted to liaise with the source and on occasion they were successful in this contact and reported back. At a stage they returned from the source with a sketch of the house that was the target.
MR HATTINGH: Do you agree that the floor plan of the house is as it is set out on Exhibit B?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, that is a correct version of it.
MR HATTINGH: Very well, please continue.
MR DE KOCK: And at that stage a time was given to us whereupon this source would wait for us. It was a pre-arranged place in that area. As I read later, it was Fountains and we would meet the source there.
At that stage there was no certainty whether we would move ourselves to the house or whether the source would take us there. Later that evening we moved out after I had made arrangements and had laid out the plans for the penetration of the house and as to how we would travel to the house, radio contact etc., and then we moved from Swazi Spa to the Fountains area, which was in Mbabane.
MR HATTINGH: May I just ask you, one of the previous applicants says that he had the impression that more members of Vlakplaas were present in Swaziland during this operation. Did you have any other members except Mr Willemse and van Dyk in the country, in Swaziland at the time of this operation?
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson no, I don't have any recollection of it, but it would not be irregular that I would have rented an extra room and would have kept two or three persons in reserve if the need should arise that there were extra terrorists in the house or in the event of us experiencing a problem and that those persons would then take over. So there was always an action to fall back on. It is possible. I would have mentioned it if I had done so, but I will just mention that for the sake of completion.
MR HATTINGH: So you did not have such people on this instance?
MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, I cannot recall that I did.
MR HATTINGH: Please continue.
MR DE KOCK: On our arrival at the rendezvous point at the Fountains area, residential area, we pulled just on the side of the road and I in my memory the three of us, Col de Jager and Col Coetzee and I moved to the minibus. I think it was a minibus, it was like a taxi-type vehicle, where we found a black man who was the source.
MR HATTINGH: Did you know this source before this incident, Mr de Kock?
MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, and also not afterwards.
MR HATTINGH: So this was your first contact with him?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson. I spoke to the source and he sat on the seat in the kombi just behind the driver's seat and I climbed in next to him and I spoke to him. The discussion was about the last operational detail. We expected three to five people and there may be twenty in the house. We had to clear up some of these aspects.
MR HATTINGH: Could you observe anything with regard to this person's appearance?
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, the kombi smelt of dagga. I spoke to him and his eyes were very bloodshot and his breath smelt of dagga. He then said that he had dropped the people off there, but that we had to launch the operation the following day or the following evening, which would be a more suitable time. I then - the weapon which I carried, it was Pachette. It was a British silent weapon, it had an integrated silencer and was based on the sterling. I pressed it against his head and said "Either I will shoot you now or we will go to the house".
The reason therefore, Chairperson, was that I could not arrive at the house and then I walk into an ambush and the source is missing, or I arrive there and the Swazi Police are waiting for us, or we strike the house and we are inside and somebody 30 or 40 paces away from there detonates a bomb in the house. This has happened previously and I was not about to underestimate my enemy.
MR HATTINGH: The observation which you made with regard to the dagga, did this emanate any feeling from you with regard to the reliability of this person?
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson yes, I would not say that I did not expect that a person would not drink liquor or use dagga, by nature of the situation he is a source and he has to do more of his group does, but this made me unsure of his motives as to why we had to come back the next or the next evening and I did not want to run that risk. And in that regard, I was the operational commander and I made that decision.
MR HATTINGH: Did you ask any of the other persons about the reliability of the source?
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, by nature of the planning one tries to gain appreciation for the source, so that one can evaluate the source, as to whether one is certain about the information which the source will supply and whether one has to verify it and do some longer observation and send more people in. There are a myriad of aspects which one has to study.
MR HATTINGH: The person then walked with you to the house?
MR DE KOCK: Well Chairperson, he did not have a choice.
MR HATTINGH: How far did you walk from the vehicle to the house?
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I would say in-between 300 to 500 metres. We moved in the dark, the weather was not so good at that stage, which made it easier for us with regard to wind and visibility and that is an operative's dream.
MR HATTINGH: And when you arrived at the house?
MR DE KOCK: When we arrived at the house the persons took up their positions as per prearranged and we went to the front door. I had the source with me. I stood in front, Col de Jager behind me and behind him was Paul van Dyk and behind him was Willemse and Pretorius. I considered breaking the lock on the door with the 15 pound hammer that we had. I think either I or Willemse carried it, I am not certain. And at that stage I decided to ask the source to knock on the door and say that he has had a flat tyre and that he required assistance.
After he knocked on the door a person stood up in the room, I would say adjacent to the wall where we were standing and I heard the person walking and then the person unlocked the door and I stormed in. He tried to close the door, I fired two shots in his chest, he fell down and I stepped over him and I ran into bedroom number two, which was the room I was appointed to. I went alone to the room because I had the element of surprise on my side and I expected another terson. The other persons went to their prearranged rooms. I know Mr Willemse went directly to the bathroom.
MR HATTINGH: As indicated on the after entry part of Exhibit B.
MR DE KOCK: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Yes?
MR DE KOCK: So that after all the members came in he controlled the passageway and he had a view of the street as well.
We moved through to the lounge. There was a woman lying who was shot. I don't know at that stage who shot her. I moved to room two where we found the person Pantsu.
MR HATTINGH: On the sketch it's bedroom one.
MR DE KOCK: I beg your pardon Chairperson, it's bedroom one.
And there I found Mr Pretorius and we found a person there. The person was trying to rise and both he and I shot him. I shot him head among others and I think Mr Pretorius shot him in his body. He was also identified as Pantsu. I have a vague recollection that the source identified him as Pantsu, him being the head target "afgesien van Glory Sidebe, wat se MK September was".
MR HATTINGH: Talking of the source, where was he during the penetration of the house?
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, one of the persons who stood at the garden gate next to a tree to watch the road in case the Swazi Police of someone pitches up, the source stood by him, so that he was out of our way and out of our shooting range.
MR HATTINGH: And after the persons were shot in the house he was brought inside to identify the people?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Did you find anything else in the house?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, in the lounge there was a type of divan and there was a metal trunk and we found some explosives there. The numbers refer to the kilogram of charges. SPM limpet mines were found and we found propaganda material and training material, that one would give out when one gives lessons. There were also handwritten documents. I don't know who wrote it, but this also dealt with training and it dealt with infiltration, methods of hiding and so forth.
MR HATTINGH: Did you confiscate all these items?
MR DE KOCK: We tried to collect everything and I had no doubt that there was more weapons and documentation, but I have us two minutes to strike the house, one extra minute for searching the house and then we had to leave.
MR HATTINGH: And you then left?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: You have heard the evidence that immediately after the house was penetrated, instruction or a proposal was made, as one of the applicants mention it, that the source be eliminated. Do you have a recollection of that?
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I do not have that recollection but it will not be improbable. I would like to mention that on occasion after this incident I made enquiries with Col de Jager and with Col Coetzee at time, whether the source was still alright, as we would say, because he saw them and he saw me and it is a matter to keep the way clear behind one.
MR HATTINGH: Did you still act inside Swaziland after this incident?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And did you have any fears that if the source was not on your side that this would be a danger to you?
MR DE KOCK: That was possible, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Did you - from there you left Swaziland.
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, we left Swaziland and we went back to the Oshoek border post and we moved illegally through the fence. A way from the border post we pressed the fence down and we went across there.
MR HATTINGH: Now before we continue, my attention is being drawn that it was said that you proposed that another house be attacked where MK Ben could probably be found. Do you have a recollection of such a proposal?
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson no, it would not have been a problem for me to do it, but we didn't have a sketch of that house, or such a premises. I will not dispute it, it may have been raised, but the fear is also always that one might not see the neighbours but the neighbours might see you and people will be informed afterwards. I would just like to mention that that area was a more affluent area of Swaziland and most of the houses had guards, security guards supplied by organisations and who were managed by security institutions.
MR HATTINGH: So you then crossed the border. And you have heard the evidence that you went to Gen Coetzee's house.
MR DE KOCK: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Did you report to him?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Completely?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And were you present when the report was made to him?
MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson. I would just like to mention here, I want to confirm that in terms of Sidebe, who's name was MK September, after we had abducted MK September out of the prison from Swaziland, and this will be heard later, he during his revelations revealed that the persons who had killed there were identified as members of his group as well as their names. This was done to Section C2 who do the questioning.
Later I had a discussion with him at Vlakplaas after he had arrived there and I asked him what was his reaction when he arrived at the house, and he said indeed he had arrived the following morning at the house and that he saw bullet holes, because some of the shots ricocheted through the window, and immediately he departed from there and went directly to Maputo in Mozambique.
MR HATTINGH: Mr de Kock, you have heard the other applicant's political motivation, do you accord with that?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Was this also your political motivation?
MR DE KOCK: Indeed, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I don't know if you wish to give this document that was handed up to you an exhibit number.
CHAIRPERSON: K.
MR HATTINGH: K. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
You then request Mr de Kock, amnesty for conspiracy to murder.
MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: And for any possible unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition for those firearms.
MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Of transgressions in regard to the crossing of the border between South Africa and Swaziland.
MR DE KOCK: That's correct.
MR HATTINGH: And you also request amnesty for any unlawful act which might emanate from your conduct during this operation.
MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH
MR DE KOCK: I would just like to mention, Chairperson, that I take responsibility for my conduct and for the members who were under my command at that stage, Chairperson.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Rossouw on record.
Mr de Kock, singular aspects with regard to the members who fell under your command, specifically Mr Willemse. Is it correct that he was the most junior person in rank during this operation?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: A person like him did not attend these planning meetings at Security Head Office and Middelburg, is that correct?
MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: And he would depend on the information which you would convey to him during the instructions you would give for the execution of the operation.
MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: And his amnesty application on page 219 says that the objective of the operation was to eliminate trained terrorists before they could enter the country to commit acts of terror. Would you say this is in agreement with the information which you conveyed to him?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: You have also heard that the evidence was given this morning that this operation was a preemptive strike, would you agree with that?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.
MR ROSSOUW: And just one final item. The false passportw which were issued, were these issued officially to members of C1?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson. May I put it as follows, the passport is not false, the name is false on the passport, but the passport is a proper genuine passport issued by the Department of Internal Affairs. So the name would be incorrect, but the passport itself is not a false document.
MR ROSSOUW: But this was issued through the official channels of the Security Branch, that those documents be made available to your members?
MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, that is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW
CHAIRPERSON: It's not only the name, is it, there's a photograph on a passport.
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson yes. If one looks at it in that manner, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Whose photograph was it, yours?
MR DE KOCK: It would be my photo, Chairperson, but ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: The department prepared carefully the passports, they didn't just give you blank passports to write names on?
MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, that is not possible.
MR PRINSLOO: No questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO
MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr de Kock, where is Glory Sidebe today, do you know?
MR DE KOCK: I have heard that he is deceased, Chairperson. After Vlakplaas he went to DCC and I think in 1992 he passed away.
MR VISSER: I understand because of natural causes, or do you not know?
MR DE KOCK: Chairperson yes, I have my own opinions but I won't view them because it's just speculation.
MR VISSER: No further questions, thank you Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chair.
NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP
MR SIBANYONI: No questions, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.
MR DE KOCK: Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And thank you for preparing this.
MR DE KOCK: Very well, thank you, Chairperson.
WITNESS EXCUSED
