DR BORAINE: Good morning Mr Ntsoereng and also to your
daughter we are very glad that you have somebody from your
own family who is with you and I hope that you are going to
feel relaxed. It's not easy to sit where you are. You are
the first today and that's even more difficult because the
day is still young and it hasn't really started, but you
will start by telling your own story. I want you to know
that this is not a court of law. We are not here to
interrogate you. We want to help you to tell your story.
Now I'd like you to start with the 3rd of September 1984
where there was a meeting at the administration offices to
talk about electricity and then to take us through your
story and I will try not to interrupt unless there is some
question that I might want to ask. Will you start now
please.
MR NTSOERENG: There was a meeting, the meeting was with
regard to electricity. It was three weeks before the 3rd of
September. The meeting was held at Zone 13. As the
residents of Zone 13 we were actually their representatives
and Zone 13 was behind with their payments and it was the
first one to pay R8,50 when other locations were still
paying a relatively low fee. When we got to the Council
they explained to us that it was difficult for Zone 13 to
obtain electricity if they did not increase the money that
we had to pay and we were behind in arrears. The residents
accepted this explanation. At this meeting it was myself,
HRV/1046 Mrs Musala/...
2
Mrs Musala as well as Mrs Dhlamini when we explained to the
residents and the residents accepted the explanation. Can I
go on?
DR BORAINE: Yes please do go on.
MR NTSOERENG: When the residents accepted this that was on
the first day, it was on a Saturday, people from the
administration offices in Sebokeng came with a fire
extinguisher. When they brought this fire extinguisher it
was a very surprising story, though I had already heard that
there was going to be a rent boycott, now I wondered as to
what was the fire extinguisher going to do. It so happened
that on that day, from that day up to Monday it was the
third day, but it was on a Monday at about 9 o'clock there
was some violence within the community. After that violence
had started I realised that there could be some problems
arising because the shops were burnt. That is when I
decided to move away from my place and I went to my
brother's place. This went on and on up till the afternoon.
At that point when I was listening to the radio I realised
that some of my members had already died on that very same
day, and we realised that the situation was quite volatile
and I could not go out of the residence. Up till sunset
even the following day then on a Wednesday it was between 5
o'clock and 7 o'clock my house was burnt down. As my house
was burning I really discovered that it was now quite bad
but I slept there and friends who were with me at that day
tried to help me get out of that place and they tried to
help me as I am a widower. They took me from there and they
took me to the Administration Board at Houtkop. I related
this matter to the police and asked them to go and fetch my
sons who were left there as well as their sister. When I
HRV/1046 got/...
3
got there the policeman went to fetch my sons and they
brought them to Houtkop. I will try to explain this a
little bit further. As I'd already explained that we were
sent a certain matter and there was a fire extinguisher my
co-members they were not only fire extinguishers but they
also got guns.
I'll just explain it a little bit further so that it
may be clear that we were a different organisation. There
was a Mathlasedi organisation. There was also an LPP as
well as Bafutsane. I was a member of Bafutsane
organisation. This really surprised me to get that some
others were armed and we were not armed. Probably they knew
what was going to happen thereafter. We remained there. As
we were still there we had to hold certain meetings to try
and get some solutions and resolutions to the situation.
As we were still furthering this matter there was
another aspect that was troubling us within the community.
That was the issue of the liquor outlets. We, as the people
that we could be able to go on as a community and develop
ourselves. I hope it is clear that at that time the liquor
licences cost a lot of money to obtain because the bottle
stores outside were not allowed to bring liquor into our
location, and we realised that that was the only thing that
could help us out of this predicament. As we were taking
this matter further we realised that we could not see eye-
to-eye with the administration board because the
administration board and the council was already there at
that time. They told us that it was a matter for the
administration board and they wanted to privatise the liquor
boards. It is true that was the end of the matter, and
these were separated in a surprising matter because most of
HRV/1046 them/...
4
them, that is the greater part went to the other people.
That is another matter that troubled the community. We
stayed as the situation went on.
Now as we went to the meetings we kept on having those
meetings and we started having altercations and we were not
seeing eye-to-eye with the other organisations that I have
already explained, and they started moving out of the
organisations and crossing floors to other organisations.
Some of them were being helped by the administration board.
And it so happened that as time went on we discovered that
as we were staying at DC Group we had to move away because
we did not have houses anymore. And at the time when we
decided to move we had to get another place to stay where we
were going to build and we got the space at Zone 10. I can
still point it now.
We discovered that we did not have anything, any
possessions, because all our possessions had been burnt when
our houses were burned, and it so happened that at that
juncture I can say that most of the people who were there
got money which could be to the amount of R5 000 in order to
start our living. I, and Mr Musala was one of the people
who did not get any money. It happened that at that
particular time I saw another fire extinguisher and it is
still there at my place.
It happened that those houses were rebuilt and when
these houses were built there had to be a division and I got
a unit next to the hostel. All the other ones from the
other opposing group had to go to other houses at Zone 10.
They went to stay there and this place was surrounded by a
fence. There were certain policemen who were guarding that
place 24 hours of the day. I was given the third fire
HRV/1046 extinguisher/...
5
extinguisher. When I got out the fire extinguisher was
there, there was no fence, nothing. And when I enquired
about this issue I was told that the person who was issuing
the R5 000 rent money was the Commissioner. When I went to
see him at his offices he said I should wait for the State
President's Fund, there is no money that I will ever get.
It so happened that the next year if I am not mistaken, it
was in June, the State President's Fund arrived. I wasn't
living peacefully and I decided to go and rebuild my house
in the township. It happened that thereafter the houses
that belonged to the councillors, the houses that were in
the townships were now fenced. Now at the hostel unit where
I was staying there was nothing. I nearly forgot that my
friend Mr Musala who was with me in this trouble decided to
leave Vaal Triangle to go to Pretoria.
It happened then that when they were busy fencing the
houses the then town secretary Mr Scholtz he was involved in
this scandal, he was taking money for himself and there was
a court case and he was sentenced. If I remember well he
also made an appeal, I don't know whether he succeeded with
the appeal or not.
This is the trouble that I have been through. All this
started in 1984 until in 1987 because you will understand
that I was between two trouble areas. In the township I was
being chased by the people and on this other side I was also
being chased away. There were bursaries afforded children,
but my children couldn't get even a cent from those
bursaries.
I want to say to you today my community harassed me
because we negotiated with them at first before I could get
into the council and the administration and the council
HRV/1046 itself/...
6
itself was harassing me. Now you have to understand, a
father who has got children, what kind of life was a man
supposed to live in those years.
DR BORAINE: Thank you Mr Ntsoereng. You have described
very clearly what it was like in that period 1984 and
onwards. Now you mention that you were a councillor but
your weren't a member of the LPP, you weren't a member of
the ruling party?
MR NTSOERENG: I wasn't in the ruling party Sir, I was in
the Bafutsane Party.
DR BORAINE: And that was an opposition party?
MR NTSOERENG: Yes it was the opposition party.
DR BORAINE: But the community were opposed to councillors
whether they were in the ruling party or in the opposition
party, is that right? Shall I repeat?
MR NTSOERENG: Yes you can repeat that Sir.
DR BORAINE: I was saying the community were they opposed
to the ruling party and to the opposition party?
MR NTSOERENG: I didn't know of any opposition from the
community because I've already explained that we had
regions. Now in the region where I was the same region paid
my fees to register because we were paying R250,00 as
registration.
DR BORAINE: Could I ask you then why do you think your
house was burnt down?
MR NTSOERENG: I think I have explained that on the 3rd
people were killed and on the 4th, on the 5th my house was
then burned, and I realised that the community was now angry
and they decided to do the same thing even if they chose me.
DR BORAINE: So there was a very big argument about who
should represent the community and who shouldn't. Now you
HRV/1046 mentioned/...
7
mentioned that some of the councillors, probably only from
the ruling party were given R5 000.
MR NTSOERENG: Yes I have already explained that Sir.
DR BORAINE: But you weren't given that because you were
not the ruling party?
MR NTSOERENG: The people who did not receive the money was
myself and Mr Musala, we were the leaders of the other two
organisations.
DR BORAINE: Now you mentioned that the State President
Fund in 1985 paid out some of the councillors for the loss
of their houses, were you paid as well?
MR NTSOERENG: The State President's Fund paid everybody
because a cheque was directed to a specific person. That is
the money that I have already explained that I used it to
rebuild my house, that was then destroyed again.
DR BORAINE: How much was that?
MR NTSOERENG: It was R16 000. That is why I managed to
rebuild my house. Sir I will explain that it was my house
that I built myself, it wasn't the Municipal house.
DR BORAINE: But then you mentioned very briefly that your
house was destroyed again in about 1989 or 1990, now why was
that?
MR NTSOERENG: Sir, I won't tell you, I don't know the
reasons because I was not a councillor anymore, but as I was
not feeling well I was not here in the Vaal Triangle. There
were people staying in my house.
DR BORAINE: Now the house that you are staying in now, is
that another house that you had to build or rent?
MR NTSOERENG: I had to go to the Unit, I went back to the
Unit that I was given before.
DR BORAINE: And are you employed or unemployed at the
HRV/1046 moment?/...
8
moment?
MR NTSOERENG: I am unemployed Sir. I am not working at
this present moment. I am just selling oranges and fruits.
DR BORAINE: Do any of your family live with you?
MR NTSOERENG: Yes Sir, this is my daughter, one of them.
DR BORAINE: You live together?
MR NTSOERENG: Yes Sir.
DR BORAINE: Do you receive any kind of pension at all?
MR NTSOERENG: I am not yet at the right age to get a
pension. I have a request Sir.
DR BORAINE: Please go ahead.
MR NTSOERENG: My request is that the files of the
administration board have to be taken out and our council
files have to be taken out as well so as to get the clear
message that we are in this situation because of the
administration board. You will realise that the money that
the people were paying were only helping the south part of
the Free State, with the money from the Vaal area.
Wittsieshoek area was built through the monies paid by the
people of this community.
DR BORAINE: We have noted your request. Is there anything
else that you want to say to the Commission?
MR NTSOERENG: I don't have so many things to say Sir.
That was the request. Now my other request is I am in this
kind of situation what can the Commission offer me so that I
can be accepted by the community?
DR BORAINE: I think that one of the good and the positive
things about these hearings is that it gives people an
opportunity to tell their story and explain why they were
doing one thing and not another, and hopefully that as one
tells one's story so the community will begin to forgive and
HRV/1046 to/...
9
to forget and to allow people to come back and to live
normal lives. But that of course is up to you and the
community, and certainly it would be a real request from the
Commission that people start healing one another and
receiving one another because those times in the eighties
were times of war and we must now make peace. Thank you
very much for coming. I am going to hand back to the
Chairperson in case anyone else wants to ask you questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Dr Boraine.
MRS SEROKE: Mr Ntsoereng I just want to ask you to briefly
explain to us why were the people boycotting rents?
MR NTSOERENG: As I have already explained people boycotted
the rent because of many reasons. You will understand that
in the year that we were placed in power it was the same
year of the Tricameral Parliament and the Black community
was not happy at all about that Tricameral Parliament, that
was the first reason.
The second reason I can say the privatisation of liquor
outlets was another issue that dissatisfied the community.
The third thing we have to remember that when Sebokeng
was formed Sebokeng was really expensive. I still remember
people were paying R8,50 rents and Sharpeville was only
paying R3,50 a month, and Sharpeville was using the bucket
system at that time. They didn't have a sewerage system.
Now it so happened that when the townships were put together
people in Sebokeng they discovered that Sharpeville was
actually developed through their expense and they were not
satisfied. And I have to say, we have to remember that even
before our council came to power there was a community
council and this council increased the rents two or three
times a year, and they said after a few months we will add
HRV/1046 a/...
10
a certain amount and after so many months we will add
another amount and people were not satisfied at all. I
think those are the reasons why the people were not
satisfied.
MS SEROKE: Now as a member of Bafutsane were you fighting
for such things?
MR NTSOERENG: Remember I was from Zone 13 which was the
first zone with no electricity. It suffered a lot. We must
remember the administration board also started in Zone 13,
they were staying in those houses. Now the development of
Sebokeng comes from the area called Zone 13. That was the
area paying the highest rents. All the zones are coming
from this other zone. That is why I emphasise that
investigations should be made as to what happened to the
monies, as to what happened to the money because we were
made to understand that Sharpeville was helped actually by
the monies from Sebokeng. We have to understand how the
(...indistinct) developed through our monies.
MS SEROKE: I thank you Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera has a few questions.
DR RANDERA: Mr Ntsoereng I just want to understand that
period a little better, what were you doing before you
became a councillor?
MR NTSOERENG: I was a salesman.
DR RANDERA: And you said earlier on when you were speaking
to Dr Boraine you said "my community harassed me but we
asked for their permission before we became councillors",
can you just tell us a little more what you mean by that?
MR NTSOERENG: When I say the community harassed me, my
house was burnt and I had to leave the township, and that is
the same community that trusted me at that time.
HRV/1046 DR RANDERA/...
11
DR RANDERA: I know it's a long time ago, can you please
just tell us there were, I understand there were some
elections for these local councils how many people actually
voted for those councils, what percentage of the population
in your opinion?
MR NTSOERENG: I can't remember the percentages but what I
can remember is the fact that in our region we had a LPP
member and I had 1,400 votes and he only had 600 votes. I
am talking about the region here, not about the Vaal
Triangle in general.
DR RANDERA: I just want to come back to where you started
your statement, I mean maybe the dates are right, maybe the
dates are wrong, you say on the 3rd of September you had a
meeting in Zone 13 with, or three weeks, sorry my apologies,
three weeks prior to the 3rd of September you had a meeting
with the people of Zone 13 ...(intervention)
MR NTSOERENG: That's correct.
DR RANDERA: It sounded like it was quite a reasonable
meeting and then three weeks later you say on the 3rd of
September I heard over the radio that some of our
councillors have been killed.
MR NTSOERENG: Yes.
DR RANDERA: What happened in this period? On the one side
you seem to have had quite a reasonable discussion with the
people of Zone 13 and three weeks later it seemed like the
township was burning, what happened inbetween? Who was
responsible? Who were the other organisations that were
working in the area?
MR NTSOERENG: Which area are you referring to Sir?
DR RANDERA: I am talking about your area, Sebokeng.
MR NTSOERENG: I want to point out that there were many
HRV/1046 organisations/...
12
organisations. UDF was present and they also held their
meetings and we used to hold our meetings as well. Now the
meeting we held three weeks before we were about to report
to the community that we will not meet their demands if they
don't agree to the fact that the rent has to be increased by
R5,00. In that same meeting, it was a great meeting, a big
meeting because we had the drum majorette, there was a
beautiful day, we were explaining to the community this
issue of increment.
DR RANDERA: Mr Ntsoereng I just want to come back to this
issuing of guns to the councillors, who gave out the guns?
Was it the administration or the police who gave out the
guns and were people trained to use those guns?
MR NTSOERENG: I want to talk about the training, I don't
know whether they were trained to use the guns, but what I
can explain is that those guns were the adminstration bought
guns. That is the fact I know.
DR RANDERA: My last question Mr Ntsoereng. You say in
your statement,
"These people who destroyed my house they also
destroyed me morally. I put the blame to the
regime, that is apartheid".
Now I want you please to just tell us what you mean by that,
but also in doing so can you please tell us in your memory
how many councillors actually lost their lives during this
period?
MR NTSOERENG: Nobody in those years wanted oppression.
Myself as a councillor I didn't like oppression but the
regime put us in trouble. I have already explained that
investigations should be conducted because the Black people
were used by the Government. The community of the Vaal
HRV/1046 Triangle/...
13
Triangle was living on conditions of bridging finance. They
used to meet their target and they could also meet their
target at Wittsieshoek. I have already indicated that the
irrigation system in that area was supported through the
funds of our region. And the community lost temper and
patience. That is why I say the regime is responsible. I
know the deceased Mr Kuzwayo Dhlamini who was killed. Mr
Siza Mucheane. Jacob Chakane and two months thereafter Zipo
Dhlamini was killed in Everton.
DR RANDERA: So that is four people that you know who were
killed during that time who were councillors.
MR NTSOERENG: But the people who died in that violent era
were many, not only the councillors, but many people died.
DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntsoereng on behalf of the TRC I would
like to thank you so much that you came. Thank you that you
brought your daughter with you today and introduced her to
us. We really want to say to you that the Truth Commission
has many tasks. One of the tasks is to try and find out the
truth of what's happened in South Africa and the information
you gave us will help us piece together the true story of
everything that happened in the Vaal Triangle in those
difficult years. Thank you for helping us with that. And
we also want to say to you that we do have sympathy with
you, with the dilemma you were in. You told us about the
difficulty of being a councillor in those years, as you said
you were chased by your own people, on the other hand you
were harassed by the regime, by the administration and we
know that the councillors also suffered and that their
families suffered with them. Thank you that you told us
that and we do hope that partly because of your story today
HRV/1046 that/...
14
that you and your family and many other councillors and
their families will be well accepted back into the
community. And as for your request that there's
investigation needed about the monies, the way the monies
were used we will take that along and we'll present your
request to the TRC. But thank you for coming, and thank you
for bringing your daughter. You may leave and you may take
your place again in the audience.
