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Content
A listing of transcripts of the dialogue and narrative of this section.
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Structure
The list provides the transcript, info about the text, and links to references contained in the text.
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Special Report
Transcripts for Section 2 of Episode 77
| Time | Summary | | | 27:56 | For the record, I must state an emphatic denial that the TRC organised this particular hearing to coincide with any political gathering. I remind Mrs. Mandela, your client that she asked for a public hearing, we didn’t. We actually asked for a section 29 which is in camera. Mrs. Mandela asked for this public hearing. This was the soonest we could arrange it in terms of serving notices on witnesses. So I want to state very strongly that we categorically deny that the TRC had anything to do with arranging anything in linking it with any other political party. | Full Transcript | | 28:43 | Since Friday evening South Africans have been asking each other, do you believe Winnie Mandela? What will this do to her public career? Do ordinary people hold her responsible for the death and destruction caused by the people around her in ’87 and ’88? We don’t know. What we do know is that the Truth Commissioners clearly did not accept her version. They made it clear through their questions and statements at the end of the hearing. | Full Transcript and References | | 29:10 | Why are you seeking to discredit people who I think honestly tried to come and give evidence? I think that for me that’s a problem. The second question I want to put to you is however you perceive the situation these were youngsters who congregated around you, you in fact took them along with you to many functions. Do you not accept that you have to bear some kind of responsibility for their actions? They in fact regarded you as their leader, their head of household. And my question is what did you in fact do to control them, or to make them accountable? Because if your evidence is to be believed today then everybody else who testified at this hearing is lying, and I’m sorry I have a problem, because I would like to believe that part of what we’re trying to do is to establish accountability. Now you can say I’m a non-South African, because that is what you said to me in the section 29 hearing. | Full Transcript | | 33:22 | It is true that most of the witnesses who testified here were lying. As far as I am concerned Richardson was lying. As far as I am concerned the two youths who claim that I gave them money to kill Dr Asvat were lying. As far as I’m concerned Morgan’s ludicrous statements made before you here are a pack of lies. I can go on and on and on. You are saying people who wanted to assist me are being discredited here. In that regard I should imagine you are referring to the MDM’s statement by Azhar Cachalia and Murphey Bathel who made a recommendation here. // Can you… // I’m sorry, I’m sorry Murphy Morobi. I beg your pardon. Azhar Cachalia who made that recommendation in his very last sentence, delivering that kind of sensational statement before this forum. You have a problem with that when I regarded such people who issued such statements during those times, you regard me as discrediting them. | Full Transcript | | 32:20 | The one overwhelming problem that I have about this hearing is that there seems to be … I mean, either there’s a conspiracy theory or even a conspiracy directed against you by a wide range of people, not only the youngsters that came here and Mr. Morgan and the whole succession of people, Richardson … but also fairly significant people in the community: the Crisis Committee, the MDM, the church leaders, the ANC statement. All concerned about the behaviour and activities and criminal activities of the club, whether they were playing soccer throughout or not, it doesn’t seem to matter. How do you explain this overarching allegation, condemnation of yourself in relation to the club and the feeling that you ought to have been able to stop it? How do you explain that? // May I suggest that we deal with that aspect in the same context with the response to Reverend Mgojo? | Full Transcript | | 33:50 | I would just like to put to you in that vein that it is whenever people are exposing the activities of you and your associates you label them, as informers and working with the system. What is your reaction to that? // I am not aware of people I have falsely accused of being informers whenever they are working against me. // Well you are yet to prove any evidence that they were informers. | Full Transcript | | 34:15 | But the most devastating blow to Madikizela-Mandela’s projected image of the innocent victim of a nasty conspiracy came from Archbishop Desmond Tutu himself, especially through his extraordinary praise for those church and political leaders who had the courage then and now to confront Madikizela-Mandela. | Full Transcript | | 34:35 | I just want to say that we have had a very close relationship with the Mandela’s. We live in the same street in what is sometimes called Beverly Hills. Our children went to the same school in Swaziland, they call me uncle and so on and Mrs. Madikizela-Mandela is godmother to one of our grandchildren who was baptized on the Sunday of Madiba’s release. When I was Bishop of Lesotho I used to visit Mrs. Madikizela-Mandela, well maybe once or twice, in Brandfort. I have immense admiration for her and there is no question at all that she was a tremendous stalwart of our struggle, an icon of liberation who was banned, harassed, under surveillance, banished. With a husband away serving a life sentence she had to bring up two young girls, and yet one has to say that something went wrong, horribly badly wrong. What I don’t know. This is what I want to say to you, I speak to you as someone who loves you very deeply, who loves your family very, very deeply. I would have said to you, let us ...more | Full Transcript | | 38:59 | The atmosphere was charged. What was going to happen next? Madikizela-Mandela consulted with her lawyer, but clearly she had no choice, she had to offer some form of apology. But as people asked afterwards, how much does an apology mean when you have denied so vehemently before that you had done anything wrong. | Full Transcript | | 39:24 | Thank you very much for your wonderful, wise words and that is the father I have always known in you. I’m hoping it is still the same. I will take this opportunity to say to the family of Dr Asvat how deeply sorry I am and to Stompie’s mother how deeply sorry I am. I have said so to her before a few years back when the heat was very hot. I am saying it is true, things went horribly wrong. I fully agree with that and for that part of those painful years when things went horribly wrong and we were aware of the fact that there were factors that led to that. For that I am deeply sorry. // Thank you very much. We adjourn. | Full Transcript | | 40:53 | There was a great effort to end these two weeks in a spirit of reconciliation. Some of the victims’ families did utter words of forgiveness, but others left still filled with bitterness. | Full Transcript | | 41:05 | From Monday I have been listening with my open ears trying to tolerate what was happening, but from today nothing has been done. That is injustice, today, there is no justice in that. When other people ask questions there are harsh answers to them but when she speaks nobody’s putting pressure on her. They are talking nicely to her, like she’s having a … Let me take it out of my chest, let the world know how I feel. I am not happy, I am not satisfied and you people if you show that you care about us, help us to find the remains of Lolo. That is what I ask from you, all of you; if you can just help me to find Lolo’s remains I’ll be very, very glad. // We shall find the remains of Lolo; we are going to pursue the matter privately. We are going to do it privately and we are going to get to the bottom of this. // I want Sibuniso, the bones of Sibuniso. If you want to talk, I’ll talk with Winnie. Winnie I want Sibuniso. | Full Transcript |
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