| Time | Summary | |
| 56:30 | Mama Sisulu just didn’t want to be implicated in this whole episode of Stompie. I mean if she got involved or she exposed as to what had happened, I mean she would have definitely implicated Winnie Mandela and that would have caused friction between the Sisulu and the Mandela camp. | Full Transcript |
| 56:52 | Despite her fears she talked about it for the first time since Winnie Mandela’s trial. // Is that your writing on the top there? // That’s my handwriting. // And is that Dr Asvat’s writing? // This is his writing. // That date there, is that the date you would have stamped? // Yes. What I was doing is just to dispense the cards and put the stamp. // That would be the correct date, wouldn’t it? // I should think so, because I wouldn’t just put any other date if it’s not the right date. He would query it, or correct it. // So you’re certain that’s the correct date? // That was the correct date. | Full Transcript |
| 57:48 | Why did so many support her false alibi, particularly Jerry Richardson, now serving life for Stompie’s murder? | Full Transcript |
| 57:58 | He said that Mrs Mandela was in Brandfort when he knew Winnie was in the Soweto house. So he’s still protecting Winnie even when they have sentenced him to death. He still protects Winnie. | Full Transcript |
| 58:08 | But why? We asked Jerry Richardson’s defence counsel. // How convinced were you that Jerry lied to protect others? // I was convinced of it. I was convinced that he lied to protect the others. // How circumstantial was the evidence against him? // Nobody actually saw Jerry take Stompie away that night. So to that extent it was circumstantial. But when the question of his sentence came up it would perhaps have been wiser for him to tell the truth. // Why do you think he was holding back? // Well, he was protecting people. // Who? // Well, the only one that was involved in the affair was Winnie, Winnie Mandela, more deeply so than anybody admitted during the trial. | Full Transcript |
| 59:50 | So was Katiza Cebekhulu consigned to oblivion because he would no longer play Winnie Mandela’s game? Winnie’s hold over ordinary people was awesome, but her protection may have gone far higher than the mere foot soldiers as both President Juluba and Emma Nicholson found out. | Full Transcript |
| 1:00:12 | Katiza Cebekhulu had been brought to Zambia by kidnapping through a number of countries, as he told us, including Mozambique by some members of the ANC, the African National Congress. | Full Transcript |
| 1:00:24 | The ANC had a well established route from South Africa to Zambia for ferrying people either to safety or to banishment. As Katiza’s legal guardian, Emma Nicholson confronted Zambia’s former president about this allegation and about his own involvement. | Full Transcript |
| 1:00:45 | Did Nelson tell you why he wanted Katiza Cebekhulu here and out of South Africa? // No he didn’t. // He didn’t give you a reason. // He didn’t give me a reason at all. What I did was to work on trust. // How did you get the message? // That came through Oliver Tambo. // And he said that Nelson Mandela wants this man out of South Africa. // Yes, and we worked on that yes. | Full Transcript |
| 1:01:15 | In the context of those years it’s possible that the Zambian government would have assumed Nelson Mandela’s direct involvement, but we asked President Mandela if this was true. This week his office told us that for the record ‘… the president wishes to make it clear that he did not arrange for Mr Cebekhulu to be taken from South Africa to Zambia or to be incarcerated there.’ | Full Transcript |
| 1:01:41 | It did surprise me. He is the president of the country. He knows the case since he’s in power now he uses power to stop the police giving me freedom. So I’m begging President Mandela allow me to return back home. | Full Transcript |
| 1:01:55 | Back home Winnie Mandela remains an icon, however tarnished and tawdry, still seen by some as the mother of the nation, by others as its mugger. Still defiant. Still, despite everything, free and without shame. Meanwhile Katiza Cebekhulu is still in exile, unsafe, a sacrificial lamb for Winnie Mandela. It’s why Katiza has told his story. He now wants it presented to the South African authorities. Emma Nicholson is helping prepare an affidavit. | Full Transcript |
| 1:02:32 | ‘In the middle of the garage, lying on the concrete floor was Lolo Sono. He had his arms wrapped around his head. He seemed to be trying to protect himself by covering his skull with his hands and forearms. Mrs Mandela was beating him savagely. She had a heavy whip in her right hand, which she was using to whip him with again and again.’ Is that correct? // Yes. | Full Transcript |
| 1:03:08 | Katiza Cebekhulu’s fate is unclear. Will the South African authorities now allow him to return home safely or will he be forced to remain in exile? How will Winnie Mandela answer Katiza Cebekhulu’s grave allegations? The government’s Truth and Reconciliation Commission is investigating the matter. President Mandela told us that he ‘… fully supports the current processes initiated by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to establish the truth of the allegations which it appears are also being dealt with by your Television Documentary.’ Winnie Mandela refused to speak to us. She has been subpoenaed to give evidence to the Commission later this month. So will there finally be justice for those who feel they and their loved ones are the victims of crimes committed by Winnie Mandela? | Full Transcript |
| 1:04:10 | My wish is if Mrs Mandela can be brought to justice and be prosecuted and spend the rest of her life in prison. I don’t wish her dead, I wish her to suffer. | Full Transcript |
| 1:04:26 | The world has to know what type of a monster this woman is. A woman, a mother, who knows the pain of giving birth. But for her it was just easy to kill other women’s children. | Full Transcript |
| 1:05:00 | I think that the last years have proved that she will never go anywhere without questions being asked about Stompie, whether she hears those or whether she doesn’t. The death of this youth activist continues to be a question next to her name. | Full Transcript |
| 1:05:30 | … Gives a scrap if Katiza Cebekhulu doesn’t go to South Africa. But I’ll go for him if he does wish to or if it’s not safe for him to go, just to make sure that South Africa knows what was done by Mrs Winnie Mandela. She should go down for life. They’re not going to forget. That evidence is going to be theirs. | Full Transcript |
| 1:06:14 | My argument is for Mrs Mandela to be tried again for the murder of Stompie. Because being fined for kidinap, she needs to be tried for the murder of Stompie. If it’s me I’m lying I should be punished. If it’s Winnie lying she should be punished. Because Winnie she claims she is innocent. I claim Winnie she’s guilty. | Full Transcript |
